View Poll Results: What basic design should we go for?

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  • NA, V

    5 50.00%
  • NA, W

    0 0%
  • FI, V

    2 20.00%
  • FI, W

    3 30.00%
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Thread: UCP Supercar II: Engine Department.

  1. #1
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    UCP Supercar II: Engine Department.

    WARNING: This is a thread for the engine design team only, If you have comments and you are not part of the engine design team please contact a member of the team by PM or post the comment in another of the open threads concerning UCP Supercar II.

    Members: Hightower99, Jediali, P4g4nite.

    Right to start the ball rolling.

    So far it looks like we have to design an engine for a GT or a 4 door sports car.

    This gives us some very general guidelines already.

    -The engine will have to be driveable over a large operating range (good for cruising and for blasting)
    -The car will be in the higher price range which allows us a certain amount of freedom (we can design a big engine )
    -Obviously in the real world we will have to consider fuel economy. Having 600+ HP is great but not if it only gets 4mpg. Also emissions should be considered important.
    -Because the car will no doubt be relatively heavy and because it will need to be a good performer the engine needs to produce enough power to get at least 500hp/1000kg. This will give the car excellent acceleration power.

    As other variables of the car's design are decided (drivetrain, body style, ect.) Then we can get more and more specific and deal with integrating our engine into the vehicle.

    My thoughts on the engine base.

    -6L V12 or W12 but up to 7L if we go with NA
    -possible FI with relatively simple twin turbo system.
    -Throttleless (no butterfly valves, the intake valves act as the throttle)
    -Lean burn with direct injection
    -possible variable compression system (still thinking about that one)
    -I would really like to run it as a detonation engine as it gets rid of the entire ignition system and should (with variable compression) be perfectly self timing.
    -Valve control system that controls Timing, lift, and duration through a large range.

    So Jediali, P4g4nite what are your own thoughts?
    Any ideas?
    Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
    Engine torque is an illusion.

  2. #2
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    sounds good:
    I am confident about us designing a suitable combustion chamber and am excited about the direct injection. If we go for FI we dont really need a variable intake manifold do we. I have a fair idea how to make the engines crankshaft, conrods and pistons. If we have turbocharging we really need to watch the CR (even with DI) and avoid an oversquare bore:stroke ratio. With light enough components (froged al pistons, ti conrods) a square (or slightly under square ratio) will work fine (and help optimise torque).

    I know a lot less abot engine electronics and ancilaries (oil passageways,pumps, radiators, ignition etc)

    however great start!
    autozine.org

  3. #3
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    Actually just having FI doesn't mean that you don't need variable intake systems. Yes the turbo (or supercharger) will pressurize the manifold but as the cylinders open and start breathing air in you will have some strong pulses. If we run two large manifolds (one for each side) then there are 6 cylinders (each at least 500cc) so it should be possible to make a manifold that can take some advantage from that.

    I thought about a variable exhaust but with turboes it would be useless and with SC then it is just getting the exhaust to seal with extra moving joints which is still hard.

    Also if we can design a variable compression system I think that a range spanning from 16:1 to 9:1 would be good. 16:1 when idling to get the tiny amount of fuel concentrated enough and hot enough to detonate. 9:1 when running WOT with good boost shouldn't damage it (I am thinking max pressure shouldn't exceed 12psi)
    Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
    Engine torque is an illusion.

  4. #4
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    Boring threads these...
    Money can't buy you friends, but you do get a better class of enemy.

  5. #5
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    Cry-baby!!!
    Money can't buy you friends, but you do get a better class of enemy.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by McReis
    Cry-baby!!!
    yeah ht, get a grip.
    The idea the last time aroudn was to have a wee bit of fun.
    Creating an "empire" and limiting inputs is plain crazy.
    In teh real engineering world, often ideas and valid objections come from outside those focussed on the matter in hand.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  7. #7
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    i feel everyone should chip in if its relevant.
    autozine.org

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99
    -Because the car will no doubt be relatively heavy and because it will need to be a good performer the engine needs to produce enough power to get at least 500hp/1000kg. This will give the car excellent acceleration power.
    Just a quick thought from an outsider..

    Would 500bhp/ton be a slight amount of overkill, name me some cars that have that ratio

    or some GT cars that have anywhere near it...

    just a thought remember
    How can men use sex to get what they want?
    Sex is what they want. - Frasier

  9. #9
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    The ultimate drivetrain setup for the Ultimate Carpage's ultimage car, imo, should be a twin-engined boxer setup. Two 4-pot boxer engines at each end. Primarily, the engines power their own axle, yet they are connected to the other with a bespoke universal axle connecting the transmission ends of the powerplants. The compact dimensions of a boxer should make this possible. Also, as boxers are mounted low, the COG would be lowered compared to an engine of another configuration.

    For the super-ultimate setup a twin-six setup using Porsche's boxer would be awesome. However, a Subaru sourced 4 cylinder would save weight, be more space efficient, cheaper to top it off. Either way, Boxer is the way to go.
    "Racing improves the breed" ~Sochiro Honda

  10. #10
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    Are you considering the legal emissiosn and efficiencies in the target markets ?
    What about the transition to bio-fuels, alternative fuels and impact on cost-of-ownership.
    And servicing needs - special tools, training, time and the impact on distrbutors ?
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    Are you considering the legal emissiosn and efficiencies in the target markets ?
    What about the transition to bio-fuels, alternative fuels and impact on cost-of-ownership.
    And servicing needs - special tools, training, time and the impact on distrbutors ?
    Not to forget the regulations that 95% of the engine/car has to be recyclable In three years IIRC it should be 99%

  12. #12
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    Turbo V8 like jay leno's tornado!
    Gone:
    09 Ducati Monster 696
    09 Audi Q5 3.2
    03 Infiniti G35 Sedan
    07 Honda Civic Coupe LX 5spd

    Current:
    10 BMW 335d
    12 Audi Q5 2.0t
    10 VW Jetta TDI
    11 Ducati Monster 796

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    yeah ht, get a grip.
    The idea the last time aroudn was to have a wee bit of fun.
    Creating an "empire" and limiting inputs is plain crazy.
    In teh real engineering world, often ideas and valid objections come from outside those focussed on the matter in hand.
    What? You have got to be kidding right?

    First of all I wanted this thread to be the place where the engine department can consider ideas and think out loud as it where without having to account for the ridiculous posts, odd-ball irrelevant ideas, and useless comments that accompany almost every thread on this website.

    I am simply trying to have a relatively clean place where the engine department won't get lost...

    I am not in any way limiting inputs I stated clearly that everyone can say whatever they want please just do that through another channel (like the PM system on in the other threads)

    In the real engineering world the engineers assigned to a project will be able to work together in relative peace, without some random guy walking in off the street and saying "Hey why don't you do that?" this is what I am trying to cut down on, just in this thread at least. There isn't even a full page of posts and there are already 6+ completely useless ones that are wasting space.

    Please everyone, try and respect this little wish. I want a place where those envolved with the engine department can discuss things. I don't want to see useless comments and completely different ideas that have little relevence to the task at hand.

    Just a little list of stuff that is here:
    Quote Originally Posted by McReis
    Boring threads these...
    Quote Originally Posted by McReis
    Cry-baby!!!
    both of those shouldn't exist. Pointless comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by PerfAdv
    The ultimate drivetrain setup for the Ultimate Carpage's ultimage car, imo, should be a twin-engined boxer setup. Two 4-pot boxer engines at each end. Primarily, the engines power their own axle, yet they are connected to the other with a bespoke universal axle connecting the transmission ends of the powerplants. The compact dimensions of a boxer should make this possible. Also, as boxers are mounted low, the COG would be lowered compared to an engine of another configuration.

    For the super-ultimate setup a twin-six setup using Porsche's boxer would be awesome. However, a Subaru sourced 4 cylinder would save weight, be more space efficient, cheaper to top it off. Either way, Boxer is the way to go.
    Blantantly disregards the fact that we will most likely be designing an engine for a front mounted position in a car that may or may not have AWD. This is an idea that should have been posted through the PM system or posted in another of the threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
    Are you considering the legal emissiosn and efficiencies in the target markets ?
    What about the transition to bio-fuels, alternative fuels and impact on cost-of-ownership.
    And servicing needs - special tools, training, time and the impact on distrbutors ?
    And you jump on me because I was cutting down on the fun and being too serious??? This isn't useless and is a valid question but it shouldn't be posted here. It should be posted in one of the other main threads about UCPSCII, or PMed. However to answer your questions:
    -Emissions maybe, otherwise no
    -we are planning on sticking with petrol so no
    -no mostly because this is supposed to be abit of fun and we are not in anyway thinking of distribution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakki
    Not to forget the regulations that 95% of the engine/car has to be recyclable In three years IIRC it should be 99%
    Again a good point but I believe might be abit too serious (maybe not) but preferrably it should have been made in another thread or PMed
    Quote Originally Posted by coolieman1220
    Turbo V8 like jay leno's tornado!
    no value whatsoever. Just an opinion that should have been stated in another thread.

    Does everyone see my point now?

    I want this thread to be about the engine design for the UCPSCII project, nothing else. The engine department needs a place to discuss things freely. All comments, ideas, objections, whatever can be PMed or posted in other threads. Not to be ignored but to keep this thread clean.

    Now onto matters:

    Quote Originally Posted by derekthetree
    Just a quick thought from an outsider..

    Would 500bhp/ton be a slight amount of overkill, name me some cars that have that ratio

    or some GT cars that have anywhere near it...

    just a thought remember
    Yes indeed it is overkill I would believe something around 300bhp/1000kg would suffice. I am glad it was brought up. putting me on the spot and telling me to name cars with that ratio (McLaren F1, All Koenigseggs, Caterham R500, Ultimas) or some GTs with anything near it (the closest I got off the top of my head is Marcos Mantis GT with about 430) was abit much. Still thank you for pointing that out. This is something that I don't mind at all.
    Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
    Engine torque is an illusion.

  14. #14
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    Remember that we are making a 4 seater M/R GT.

    Don't make too big of an engine.
    I'm dropping out to create a company that starts with motorcycles, then cars, and forty years later signs a legendary Brazilian driver who has a public and expensive feud with his French teammate.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99
    ...please just do that through another channel (like the PM system on in the other threads)...
    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99
    ...This is an idea that should have been posted through the PM system or posted in another of the threads...
    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99
    ...It should be posted in one of the other main threads about UCPSCII, or PMed...
    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99
    ...preferrably it should have been made in another thread or PMed...
    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99
    ...All comments, ideas, objections, whatever can be PMed or posted in other threads.
    I don't see the whole idea of PM's here, I think that there's more to gain than to lose if people in different tasks know of the ideas of others.

    A good example might be the Mazda RX8, where the Wankel theme is visible also in the interior.

    I also think that things like emissions, weight, size and costs of the engine (etc) and the whole doability should be considered. Not just plain max power.

    One question; are you thinking of using an existing engine (which more or less eliminates the issues with recyclability for one) or designing one from scratch, as I understood in one of the other threads?

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