View Poll Results: What basic design should we go for?

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  • NA, V

    5 50.00%
  • NA, W

    0 0%
  • FI, V

    2 20.00%
  • FI, W

    3 30.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: UCP Supercar II: Engine Department.

  1. #196
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    13 quotes matra! is that a record (probably not). You know whenever i have been involved in designing stuff in my contracting teams we use design codes! thats how we figure stuff out. anyone else aware that there is usually a structured approach? i cant find any on the web but the american associations probably have some...just an idea. At the moment its a bit like arguing what colour the bedroom will be before you build the house. best of luck anyways

    heres an example:
    http://www.asme.org/Communities/Technical/Divisions/
    autozine.org

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekthetree View Post
    oh you caught me

    I'm both...
    our secret.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    yes and yes
    ProDrive version called the PZ. Limited edition UK car
    Details in other posts and it HAS been egg-nogged !!

    Most of the time the gear-change beep is screaming out when I'm driving around. Already shocked other RX8 owners with the gusty in teh "new car" ... ie 200 miles on the clock and blasting it around the borders including a wee "flight" at a hump

    Now at 800 and it's loosened up nicely and the tyres are well scrubbed.
    Grip in the dry is fantastic, but the tyres are crappy in the wet. Great fun but not so fast. Tyre change coming up I reckon
    You sound like a kid with a toy store voucher for $1000
    It's always been one of them unique sounding engines them rotary's.
    "Just a matter of time i suppose"

    "The elevator is broke, So why don't you test it out"

    "I'm not trapped in here with all of you, Your all trapped in here with me"

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickHolden View Post
    You sound like a kid with a toy store voucher for $1000
    It's always been one of them unique sounding engines them rotary's.
    A wee bit mroe than $1000

    THe PZ has a Prodrive exhaust which makes it sound even better
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by jediali View Post
    13 quotes matra! is that a record (probably not). You know whenever i have been involved in designing stuff in my contracting teams we use design codes! thats how we figure stuff out. anyone else aware that there is usually a structured approach?
    Drakkie has project structure and staffing in hand ... see http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...ad.php?t=31253

    The issue with using stadnard design "codes" - ie practise and principles - is it tends to create the same product as the last time. Less true innovation.

    Facilitation of crossover ideas is key to making great breakthroughs and great solutions.
    Prime example ... Japanese cars ...... fantastic solutions but lacking in innovations in the main. British cars full of innovation over the years but awful solutions

    There is definatley a lump in the path at the moment but that's all part and parcel of the 4 stages of team work !!!
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Prime example ... Japanese cars ...... fantastic solutions but lacking in innovations in the main. British cars full of innovation over the years but awful solutions
    Inadvertedly you've given us the solution. Get a japanese and a british bloke, lock them in a room, come after some months, and voila one brilliant car comes out...

    No probably not...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    The issue with using stadnard design "codes" - ie practise and principles - is it tends to create the same product as the last time. Less true innovation.
    ok thanks. However
    1. can we do this alone (no offence intended)
    2. Some codes are not about creativity but required materials and design considerations. people arent creative in that way about say a nuclear reactor..its about meeting standards.

    dont take this too seriously, just saying

    hmm:
    autozine.org

  7. #202
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    Matra: I have sketched engine configurations and I can't fit a 3L Flat 6 under the rear seats without the seat being too high. It is also difficult to get intake air and to take the heat away from the engine.

    I don't think the Hillman Imp was particularly clever at all. Wow they managed to fit a 875cc flat 4 and a radiator into the back of a car. Another problem with trying to mount an engine under the seats, from the seat back to the front of the seat (where the floor starts) is not enough to cover the whole engine so it will only be partially under the seat. This brings forth the next issue which is that the lowest point of the seat bottom now defines the ceilling and to make enough room for a healthy sized engine that point will be ridiculously high.

    With a V12 mid mounted then it will be behind the rear seats seperated by a fire wall. Having the gas tank under the rear seats isn't a problem at all.

    Flat engines normally have all the ancillaries on top and there would also be turboes above the engine. Unless the rear of the car is really tall then no you can't have a decent sized luggage compartment on top. There are also other things to think of, how are you going to insulate the luggage? Where is the heat going to go from the engine now that it is again blocked from going up?

    A 4 seater GT with a mid mounted engine is rare anyways as it isn't a very smart way to combine those elements. In fact I am having trouble thinking of many 4 seater GTs with mid mounted engines. I keep thinking of the Lambo. Urraco which had a 3L V8 mounted sideways. The whole idea is pretty odd.

    Maybe if we need better space then a better idea would be to have a sideways mounted W8.

    Yeah Why not a 4L W8 twin turbo. That would be sweet. Of course still with all the goodies that where planned already.

    What do you (everyone) think about that.

    A transversly mounted 4L W8?
    Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
    Engine torque is an illusion.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99 View Post
    What do you (everyone) think about that.

    A transversly mounted 4L W8?
    So what, then, was the point of the poll?

    You already seem to have decided that it will have turbos, despite an obvious preference for natural aspiration.
    Last edited by Coventrysucks; 02-14-2007 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tiv View Post
    at least, Matra was good enough to say more than "No."
    Sorry, I can carry on pointing out why your idea is so bad if you'd like.

    The car would need to be probably 3 - 4m wide, at a minimum.

    The engine would need firewalls on 3 sides (plus a top, presumably) rather than 1, which has tripled the weight of that.

    How do you get any cooling to the engine?

    The rear passengers are going to cook. The heat coming off the transmission tunnel of a Cayenne after 5 mins of being thrashed around a field was bad enough. I don't think I'd relish being sat next to an entire engine for a couple of hours.

    Conversation between the rear passengers is going to be a bit of a shouting match - if not due to noise, then because they will be so far away from each other because of all the space taken up with sound deadening material.

    With the fuel tank in the middle of the passenger compartment - how exactly do you propose to fill it up?

    Et Cetera.
    Last edited by Coventrysucks; 02-14-2007 at 04:43 PM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Inadvertedly you've given us the solution. Get a japanese and a british bloke, lock them in a room, come after some months, and voila one brilliant car comes out...

    No probably not...
    most likely you'd get British electrics and Japanese styling with poorly translated user manual !!

    See Honda Civic <-> Rover
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #206
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    I don't know if this has been said, but has anyone considered using a sequential transmission? Something like a Hewland 6 speed?

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by hightower99 View Post
    Matra: I have sketched engine configurations and I can't fit a 3L Flat 6 under the rear seats without the seat being too high. It is also difficult to get intake air and to take the heat away from the engine.
    Remember this is a GT ... not a super low sports car. THe rear seats need to be comfortable, so frankly you already HAVE most of that height being given to you !!
    I don't think the Hillman Imp was particularly clever at all. Wow they managed to fit a 875cc flat 4 and a radiator into the back of a car.
    Sad.
    Proof of the lack of knowledge amongst those who think all designs are obvious. Check out the suspension and gearbox and cooling layout. It WAS innovative. Nobody else managed it at the time., Closest being Tatra which was about 6 feet longer !!!
    But I bow to your superior engineering and will go to to Davrian etc and all the winning race cars that adopted the Imp layout and tell them they were wrong !!!!
    Another problem with trying to mount an engine under the seats, from the seat back to the front of the seat (where the floor starts) is not enough to cover the whole engine so it will only be partially under the seat.
    Well it depends it was a 4 or 6 it woudl fit easy and if it was a 12, well there are other things you can use the space above for I suggest you are thinking square boxes again
    This brings forth the next issue which is that the lowest point of the seat bottom now defines the ceilling and to make enough room for a healthy sized engine that point will be ridiculously high.
    See above, it's a GT and the reaq seats need to be comfortable. So you have the average length of the adult tibia to accomodate.
    With a V12 mid mounted then it will be behind the rear seats seperated by a fire wall. Having the gas tank under the rear seats isn't a problem at all.
    Oh yes it is. Because in rear end crash tests the hot engine will be pushed to the tank and will create a recognisable fire risk.
    THere are REASONS designers go to great lengths to keep tanks away from the big heavy lumps of steel in a car !!!
    Flat engines normally have all the ancillaries on top and there would also be turboes above the engine.
    You used the words demosntrating "stuck thinking" .... "normally"
    [qupte] Unless the rear of the car is really tall then no you can't have a decent sized luggage compartment on top. There are also other things to think of, how are you going to insulate the luggage? Where is the heat going to go from the engine now that it is again blocked from going up?[/quote]
    Insulation is easy.
    DUcting and forced air flow are already used in many mid engined cars to keep heat down.
    Have you not seen any up close ?
    The Matra used simple twin walled steel panel with the bottom directed forward to trap aor moving under the car THe Alpines used forced induction and air channels built into the lids. THere are LOTS of solutiosn out there already !!!
    A 4 seater GT with a mid mounted engine is rare anyways as it isn't a very smart way to combine those elements. In fact I am having trouble thinking of many 4 seater GTs with mid mounted engines. I keep thinking of the Lambo. Urraco which had a 3L V8 mounted sideways. The whole idea is pretty odd.
    See earlier posts.
    THe A610 was a better performing and handling car than the equivalent POrsceh of the day.
    If we don't know our history we are condemned to repeat the errors of our fathers.
    Maybe if we need better space then a better idea would be to have a sideways mounted W8.
    Never makes sense to mount a V or W engine sideways as exhaoust routing becomes overly complex with restrictions and intrusion to usable space. Sketch where you think the exhausts off the front bank woudl go ? Under -- oops just made all the engine mass higher ... over --- oops just made the top of the engine compartment VERY warm .... sides ---- oops just got in the way of the suspension and the bodywork.
    Yeah Why not a 4L W8 twin turbo. That would be sweet. Of course still with all the goodies that where planned already.
    So nothing was learned from the XJ220 program
    Don't put all that heat in the rear of an enclosed bodywork car
    What do you (everyone) think about that.

    A transversly mounted 4L W8?
    MANY more problems than the few you are suggesting exist for a flat
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  13. #208
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    Here's an idea for the engine:

    This beast


  14. #209
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    Nice pic jedali.
    Note the lack of "I". ONce a team has re-formed it will be removed from all vocab
    Kind of stuck at 1 as it's seems that there is a hidden agenda at play with a preferred solution and an unwillingness to be open and pro-active on inputs

    Good point on the legal requirements. I think we have to take on board that we cannot do the engineering on deformation zones, side impact, roll over impacts, standard crash tests, tensile material needs and the million other things that computers spend most of their time doing for the manufacturers today First approximations on all is what I'd suggest as to do otherwise will almost certainly end up in over-engineering
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coventrysucks View Post
    So what, then, was the point of the poll?

    You already seem to have decided that it will have turbos, despite an obvious preference for natural aspiration.
    You must be blind!

    Since when did 5 against 5 give an obvious preference to one or the other?

    5 voted for NA
    5 voted for FI

    I specifically said that it was two seperate things you would be voting on and not the total configuartion.

    Matra: This is a GT which is relatively sleek and layed back. We aren't making a SUV. The seats will be too tall in a GT.

    About the Imp yes it was relatively innovative but it isn't the greatest solution ever is it? I think what Sir Alec Issigonis did was much more clever and I think that you can see that in the general shape of the automotive market. I am in no way saying that it wasn't a bright solution or that it was easy.

    No a 3L flat 6 is going to be at least 35cm long if not more and you can't get all of that under a seat that is maybe 10cm longer. A flat 4 you could but then the displacement is pretty limited you wouldn't want to make it bigger than 3L.

    Again this is for a GT not a SUV big difference in seat height.

    with a V12 mounted mid you would obviously reinforce the cabin to keep the engine from mashing rear passengers during a rear end collision. Also note that being mid mounted there is more than enough space for a big crumple zone. Also the engine would be mounted quite solidly to the car as well as the transmission, if the fuel tanks where under the rear seats they would be more than protected.

    Where else can you mount ancillaries on a flat engine? mounting it underneth is not smart because then you still have the problem of height and you just lifted the CoG alot too. Mounting them all beside the engine isn't very bright either because that makes the engine compartment even wider and it would be difficult to design the belt path. Technically you could but one large alternator on the engine and drive the rest electronically but you can do that with any engine.

    Insulation isn't easy if you are trying to keep a luggage compartment about ambient temp when you have an engine compartment right under it. Yes mid engined cars have things that help cooling so does every other car aswell. But you will notice that the vast majority of them are relatively open over the engine as this is the easiest and most efficient way to remove the heat.

    Yeah I know the A610 was good but just because it was a relative succes doesn't make the idea of a 4 seat Mid engined GT supreme. Besides it was rear engined anyways. And it wasn't that much of a GT, not much luxury too it.

    Actually Matra I have a sketch with a good exhaust on it that wouldn't impede on anything. It actually makes the engine compartment into a nice square... I will transfer it to paint and post a picture soon.

    Also cooling is not a problem. It is pretty simple to get rid of heat when the space over top of the engine is open.

    Actually it is begining to sound like a good choice. But lets let everyone have there say...

    Matra you obviously think I am close minded so why don't you post what you think will be the problems with a transversly mounted W8 twin turbo. I will then try to solve all those problems and compare the total solution against the flat 6's total solution... does that sound fair?
    Power, whether measured as HP, PS, or KW is what accelerates cars and gets it up to top speed. Power also determines how far you take a wall when you hit it
    Engine torque is an illusion.

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