UCP Supercar II: Engine Department.

[jediali]

good to see a happy team!
its a NA vee then!

[Matra et Alpine]

Engineer what us, the bean counters, say is best...

If you guys are going to be true to form then you'll be askign for the CHEAPEST

[henk4]

Think New but not Too New...

yep, the Audi R10 engine is new, but not too new as it has dominated long distance racing only for one season....

[Coventrysucks]

It is impossible to accomodate every little idea that everyone on this forum has.

It is not impossible for you to discuss the matter before deciding it though, is it?

There seems to have been little or no discussion, merely presumption.

I get annoyed when they think that there ideas are the best and that it should simply be that way because it is cool in there own minds.

You must really annoy yourself then.

One member wanted us to put two massive marine diesels into the car???

Oh, really.

I must have missed that one.

I want to have this decided quickly so we can get on with other aspects.

Yes, but it isn't a case of "want to have" because the decision has already been made, apparently.

You say you want to have discussion, but I can't quite work out how much attention will be paid to a discussion about, say, a rotary solution, when you are already forging ahead with a reciprocating one.

Are you really going to ditch the idea you already have, if someone suggests something better?

You have no idea do you?

That is incredibly condescending and insulting.

I don't pretend to know anything about engines, that is not my field of expertise.

How am I supposed to say "It should be rotary because..." when I don't know the "because"?

It should be that people who are not the experts make a suggestion, then you can say "that won't work because X, Y and Z, and A is a better solution than that because of B, C and D".

By ordering that everyone apart from you presents a burden of proof you will kill discussion, because few will be able to give a strong justification.

I didn't want to have to have a 20 page battle over whether the engine should run on petrol, diesel, alcohol, ect...

So there should be no discussion about which of those is actually the best way forwards?

Thing is that the Fun you experience isn't porportional to the amount of half baked ideas you post. I just ask that if you want something to be included in the design then state it and have some sort of argument that is better than "because thats cool"

Again, you expect people to become experts in the field before you will listen to their ideas.

Maybe you should climb down from your "high tower" and
follow your own suggestion and present some justification for the decisions you have taken, so that us poor ignorant fools can actually see that what you propose is actually a good idea, and not some paint-by-numbers engineering exercise for you to feel smug about?

So far the only justification that seems to exist for your proposed solution is that the engine "team" think it would be "cool"...

[hightower99]

yep, the Audi R10 engine is new, but not too new as it has dominated long distance racing only for one season....

Hey, you know that was a remark against Coventrysucks about him saying that the choices I have put in the poll aren't original enough...

He would probably look at the R10 engine and say "just a V10 diesel like I haven't seen that before!"

I know that it is an engineering marvel.

It is not impossible for you to discuss the matter before deciding it though, is it?

There seems to have been little or no discussion, merely presumption.

Actually I discussed the matter briefly with Jediali. In the end we wanted to make an engine that included technology that benefits petrol burning engines.

Oh, really.

I must have missed that one.

Hahaha yeah right well take a look at page 6 of this thread post number 83.

Why not draw inspiration from outside the tedious conventions of the automotive industry, and stick in a pair of these bad boys:

Isotta Fraschini L1306 TS
......

Just so you know the IF L1306 TS is a marine diesel engine. You suggested a pair of them for this car.

Yes, but it isn't a case of "want to have" because the decision has already been made, apparently.

You say you want to have discussion, but I can't quite work out how much attention will be paid to a discussion about, say, a rotary solution, when you are already forging ahead with a reciprocating one.

Are you really going to ditch the idea you already have, if someone suggests something better?

No THE decision hasn't been made a few minor ones have. If you want a rotary engine then show me what you want and why you want it. If the only reason you can come up with is "because its cool" then no I am not going to change everything else.

If somebody wants something else they think is better and they have some valid points for why it is better than yes of course I will change everything. We have commited to little at this point anyone can turn this around as long as they have some reason to.

That is incredibly condescending and insulting.

I don't pretend to know anything about engines, that is not my field of expertise.

How am I supposed to say "It should be rotary because..." when I don't know the "because"?

It should be that people who are not the experts make a suggestion, then you can say "that won't work because X, Y and Z, and A is a better solution than that because of B, C and D".

By ordering that everyone apart from you presents a burden of proof you will kill discussion, because few will be able to give a strong justification.

What? If you want a rotary then it is because you think that it will be a better solution right? If you think that then it might be a good idea to do just alittle research about it to find out before posting that you want a rotary solution. Is that too much to ask?

Why would you want something else if you didn't know anything about it?

You don't even need to post proof just try to get someone from engine department to discuss it with you. Its alot easier over PM.

What you are descirbing is exactly what I don't want to see too much of. If you are going to make a suggestion have a valid reason for wanting it. I am not free from burden of proof but thing is you only have to convince us in the engine department to go for it. I am not saying that I will not consider ideas but if you want me to take any ideas seriously then I ask that there is some form of reason.

So there should be no discussion about which of those is actually the best way forwards?

hah! there would be a 20 page discussion about what "the best way forwards" actually means before we could discuss what fuel to use. I told you Jediali and I want to design some systems that we have been thinking of that benefit petrol more than other fuels. In the end it is almost only a matter of personal preferrance and the majority of the world is for petrol so it isn't the wrong decision.

Again, you expect people to become experts in the field before you will listen to their ideas.

Maybe you should climb down from your "high tower" and
follow your own suggestion and present some justification for the decisions you have taken, so that us poor ignorant fools can actually see that what you propose is actually a good idea, and not some paint-by-numbers engineering exercise for you to feel smug about?

So far the only justification that seems to exist for your proposed solution is that the engine "team" think it would be "cool"...

I think you should read this thread again. Not only have I asked everyones opinion on some systems I am trying to design (which I have only recieved any effort from jediali) But I have tried to defend all of the things that I vote for (FI, W configuration.) Nobody has challenged that we are trying to make the engine run in DICI mode (meaning Direct Injection Compression Ignition) so no discussion has come from that...

What haven't I justified?

I can't pull ideas out of thin air. I have tried to narrow down the selection from every possible configuration down to the 4 that are most prudent.

I am not going to follow everything everyone says because there would be no engine.

I am not asking for you to be an expert I am asking you to be mature about this. If you have an idea why not research and learn about it then when you know alittle about it (at least enough to have some sort of discussion) then bring your idea here.

[Ferrer]

He would probably look at the R10 engine and say "just a V10 diesel like I haven't seen that before!"

Only he wouldn't... because it's a V12...

[henk4]

hah! there would be a 20 page discussion about what "the best way forwards" actually means before we could discuss what fuel to use. I told you Jediali and I want to design some systems that we have been thinking of that benefit petrol more than other fuels. In the end it is almost only a matter of personal preferrance and the majority of the world is for petrol so it isn't the wrong decision.

a very well underpinned decision....in Europe the majority of all cars sold in 2006 is diesel powered.....

[henk4]

Just so you know the IF L1306 TS is a marine diesel engine. You suggested a pair of them for this car.

some of the more interesting racing cars from the twenties used aero engines......

[henk4]

Nobody has challenged that we are trying to make the engine run in DICI mode (meaning Direct Injection Compression Ignition) so no discussion has come from that...

so on the basis of that definition you excluded to even consider diesel engines?

[hightower99]

Only he wouldn't... because it's a V12...

Thats right...

sorry for the slip...

a very well underpinned decision....in Europe the majority of all cars sold in 2006 is diesel powered.....

Yes but how many of those where performance GTs? I didn't say that people don't buy diesels I said people do still buy petrol powered cars. When you take the whole world into account then you see a slightly different image.

some of the more interesting racing cars from the twenties used aero engines......

yeah... from the '20s... aero engines...

[hightower99]

so on the basis of that definition you excluded to even consider diesel engines?

I was making a point. Basically that everyone is more interested it posting there own little ideas then actually discussing the engine design.

We did consider diesel in fact that is why Jediali and I thought of trying to run petrol in CI.

[henk4]

I was making a point. Basically that everyone is more interested it posting there own little ideas then actually discussing the engine design.

We did consider diesel in fact that is why Jediali and I thought of trying to run petrol in CI.

why are our ideas qualified as "little"? What are you trying to imply? That you are the master engine designer of UCP for whom all people should fall on their knees immediately and stumble in full admiration "Give us your thoughts oh Lord and Master"?
I think Coventry also referred to your arrogance, but it seemed to be completely lost on you.

[Matra et Alpine]

ht, you would benefit from reading your posts.

Look at the number of times you use "I" and I was amazed you justified a decision about discussion as having been doen "I and jediali briefly"

Stop steam-rollering.
Either you will end up doing it alone and nobody will want the solution or you will have chaos as your approach has already created.

I hope in your life you succeed in being a self-employed designer and never have to work with anyone for their sanity

That you are the master engine designer of UCP for whom all people should fall on their knees immediately and stumble in full admiration

If you have hte time Pieter, go check the ht posts in other threads

[jediali]

On behalf of the engine people can we continue to invite everyones opinion and not perpetuate post picking. we didnt really want to post on this but we havent really started anything and we wont until we decide on something final, we are all still in discussion

edit: Together Everyone Achieves More

[Matra et Alpine]

Cheers, J, that comment about 50 posts ago would have been very helpful.
As usual it takes a Scot to organise anything properly