Single turbo setup?

[McReis]

cheaper yes, nicer and faster most definately not! how did you come to that conclusion?

It's easy to come to some conclusions when you know a little a bout cars. Sicne you're the one fitting a heavy and boring V12 engine in place of a performance high-revving 6 cilinder M engine, I guess I know a little more about cars than you.

It will show up at several shows and meets here in denmark and I will also use it for abit of racing.

Against what? Limos or cargo vans?

Well the turbo can provide up to 800HP worth of air and with upgraded internals and fuel system the engine itself will be able to support it.

I've never heard anyone who's really into cars say that a turbo can provide a certain amount of HP. I thought the potential of a turbo was mesured in pressure and not hp...

How will it be heavy? the total engine package shouldn't weigh that much more than the original engine if it was also turbocharged

Sure. But the original one isnt' turbocharged. And BTW, turbocharging a E36 m3 is also very stupid. Have you ever heard about usable power?


To be totally honest I don't think that car will ever exist for one of 2 reasons: either you're lying or you will never achieve it.

[hightower99]

It's easy to come to some conclusions when you know a little a bout cars. Sicne you're the one fitting a heavy and boring V12 engine in place of a performance high-revving 6 cilinder M engine, I guess I know a little more about cars than you.

You are mistaken the M70 is actually quite light for it's size (only 155kg naked and 240kg fully dressed) and the S50 M3 engine is quite heavy for it's size (152kg naked and 220kg fully dressed). Also how is a 300hp 5L V12 boring? If it is the power you are referring to it will have over 700 when i am finished.

Against what? Limos or cargo vans?

Haha funny guy aren't you? I am talking about drag races, the odd track day and maybe a hill climb (not that there are hills in denmark) also I will bring it out to the North Ring in germany.

I've never heard anyone who's really into cars say that a turbo can provide a certain amount of HP. I thought the potential of a turbo was mesured in pressure and not hp...

Really? thats odd. Well turbos are only able to flow a certain mass of air at certain pressures and HP is directly proportional to those values. Notice also that most turbo manufacturers have a power rating for all their turbos... But just FYI the GT4088R can flow over 60lbs at a pressure factor of 3-3.5.

Sure. But the original one isnt' turbocharged. And BTW, turbocharging a E36 m3 is also very stupid. Have you ever heard about usable power?

You mean to say you are not a fan of FI in general? because it certainly isn't stupid to turbocharge the S50. Also if you know anything about engines and FI then you would know that the range of useable power is highly dependant on the system used. BMW has successfully used twin turbos to increase the range of useable power in an I6.

To be totally honest I don't think that car will ever exist for one of 2 reasons: either you're lying or you will never achieve it.

You are entitled to your opinion.

But I will finish this project.

If just to prove you wrong

[Rockefella]

If it is the power you are referring to it will have over 700 when i am finished.
But I will finish this project.

If just to prove you wrong

Just the same way you provided all of that proof you were asked about in prior threads, by multiple members. Bullshit meter just went up another 2 notches.

[hightower99]

Just the same way you provided all of that proof you were asked about in prior threads, by multiple members. Bullshit meter just went up another 2 notches.

I do promise to get a digital camera.

I also promise to get some dyno runs with the M70 to show the difference when the only thing changed is port volume (I will make it smaller and see if it gives any power on the M70).

[Matra et Alpine]

BMW has successfully used twin turbos to increase the range of useable power in an I6.

So why are you planning a single turbo V12 ?

"Common sense" should guide you that you really want a quad turbo

"Usable power" came from the I6 because BMW knew what they were doing and didn't go for a peaky single solution !!!

[jediali]

I agree that technically if stoichiometrec fuel ratio is used with an air mass flow a certain hp can be specified to a turbo however there are many assumptions let down by the engines many inneficiencies, ie blow down, heat, indicated losses (off thetop of my head) so to say that a turbo delivers 14.71 kg of air per minute to the engine it will need 1 kg of fuel per minute. since petrol has an (average) calorific value of 45MJ/kg therefore we have 45 MJ of fuel being processed every minute, assume a 25% thermal efficiency (how well energy is extracred from fuel) this drops to 0.25x45 = 11.25 MJ per hour. Power (watts, w) is energy (joules, J) divided by time (t, seconds) therefore power = 11,250,000 J / 60 s = 187500w or 187.5kw or ...(since 1kw is roughly 1.314022 hp) ....251.4416 hp...but thats ignoring many losses, take 5-7% for mechanical losses for starters...exact hp would be experimental

[henk4]

(since 1kw is roughly 1.314022 hp)

I think we need more exact figures here...

[McReis]

If it is the power you are referring to it will have over 700 when i am finished.

Yeah sure.

Haha funny guy aren't you? I am talking about drag races, the odd track day and maybe a hill climb (not that there are hills in denmark) also I will bring it out to the North Ring in germany.

I believe the part about drag races...

You mean to say you are not a fan of FI in general? because it certainly isn't stupid to turbocharge the S50. Also if you know anything about engines and FI then you would know that the range of useable power is highly dependant on the system used. BMW has successfully used twin turbos to increase the range of useable power in an I6.

When I mean usable power I mean that there's no use for 750hp on a track or road, specially mounted on a chassis that was not developed to handle them. I like FI engines when they're made for that purpose. To just ad a turbo to an engine that had a great development to work perfectly without it is to play the engineer.

But I will finish this project.

If just to prove you wrong

I really hope so.

[P4g4nite]

1 turbo is going to be easier to fit than 2.

The is the exact topic of contention in this thread, considering the plumbing involved 2 turbos is far easier than 1.
What plan do you have in mind? Can you draw something up?

I've never heard anyone who's really into cars say that a turbo can provide a certain amount of HP. I thought the potential of a turbo was mesured in pressure and not hp...

I've rarely heard of turbos rated in anything other than hp, since they are designed to flow an amount of air which supports an amount of hp it is quite reasonable to rate a turbo in hp potential/suitability.
Garrett gives a hp rating for all of their turbos.

I agree that technically if stoichiometrec fuel ratio is used with an air mass flow a certain hp can be specified to a turbo however <extremely anal factors snipped>...exact hp would be experimental

Of course, this is why approximate hp values are assigned.

[hightower99]

So why are you planning a single turbo V12 ?

"Common sense" should guide you that you really want a quad turbo

"Usable power" came from the I6 because BMW knew what they were doing and didn't go for a peaky single solution !!!

I believe I used "common sense" out of proper context what I mean is that I will be using what knowledge I have primarily. Of course I will consult certain professionals whom I trust.

Anyways I have already stated why I am planning a single turbo V12. Because I already have most of the parts needed and because I believe that it is the best choice for what I want.

I agree that technically if stoichiometrec fuel ratio is used with an air mass flow a certain hp can be specified to a turbo however there are many assumptions let down by the engines many inneficiencies, ie blow down, heat, indicated losses (off thetop of my head) so to say that a turbo delivers 14.71 kg of air per minute to the engine it will need 1 kg of fuel per minute. since petrol has an (average) calorific value of 45MJ/kg therefore we have 45 MJ of fuel being processed every minute, assume a 25% thermal efficiency (how well energy is extracred from fuel) this drops to 0.25x45 = 11.25 MJ per hour. Power (watts, w) is energy (joules, J) divided by time (t, seconds) therefore power = 11,250,000 J / 60 s = 187500w or 187.5kw or ...(since 1kw is roughly 1.314022 hp) ....251.4416 hp...but thats ignoring many losses, take 5-7% for mechanical losses for starters...exact hp would be experimental

I agree completely. However the power rating of this turbo is proven through practical application as well as accurate calculations. On Garrett's website they rate it at 700HP and the same turbo has been used in applications and shown that it can be good for 800+. The final power output is more dependant on the engine's state of tune then anything else.

When I mean usable power I mean that there's no use for 750hp on a track or road, specially mounted on a chassis that was not developed to handle them. I like FI engines when they're made for that purpose. To just ad a turbo to an engine that had a great development to work perfectly without it is to play the engineer.

You do realise that I am not going to be driving around at peak power all the time right? I plan on making the engine drivable not a dyno queen. Why don't you look up what a GT4088R actually is, same with the M70. Again the M3 chassis is very good and I will be upgrading it to handle the power (suspension, brakes, chassis regidity, safety, aerodynamics). BTW The M70 lends itself to FI pretty well being a strong balanced design and having a relatively low CR. I also plan on raising the rev limit as much as I can.

The is the exact topic of contention in this thread, considering the plumbing involved 2 turbos is far easier than 1.
What plan do you have in mind? Can you draw something up?

I will make a thread to follow the whole and I don't actually want to get into too much detail right now (because there isn't alot of detail to get into). The reason for this thread was to ask for information about any examples of a single turbo V12. I have already made the descission long before I made this thread.

Also how is routing exhaust from each bank into their own turbo then out any harder then getting both banks to go into a single turbo up front? It isn't harder it is just designed differently. Now which is easier: getting air from two seperate turbos that probably aren't producing the same flow and pressure to merge flow through an IC and then into the engine OR getting the charged air from a single turbo (which is already up front) to go through an IC then into the engine? and after that which set is easier to control? As far as I see it 1 turbo is easier to make and will fit much better then a twin turbo system.

[kingofthering]

There are many for sale here in denmark and in germany. I plan on picking one up here in denmark that hasn't paid registration yet for around 50000DK (around 9 grand USD). cheaper yes, nicer and faster most definately not! how did you come to that conclusion?

E36 M3- 286HP
E38 7-series 282hp.

Well...

Draw your own conclusion.

[Bob]

I believe I used "common sense" out of proper context what I mean is that I will be using what knowledge I have primarily. Of course I will consult certain professionals whom I trust.

Anyways I have already stated why I am planning a single turbo V12. Because I already have most of the parts needed and because I believe that it is the best choice for what I want.

I agree completely. However the power rating of this turbo is proven through practical application as well as accurate calculations. On Garrett's website they rate it at 700HP and the same turbo has been used in applications and shown that it can be good for 800+. The final power output is more dependant on the engine's state of tune then anything else.

You do realise that I am not going to be driving around at peak power all the time right? I plan on making the engine drivable not a dyno queen. Why don't you look up what a GT4088R actually is, same with the M70. Again the M3 chassis is very good and I will be upgrading it to handle the power (suspension, brakes, chassis regidity, safety, aerodynamics). BTW The M70 lends itself to FI pretty well being a strong balanced design and having a relatively low CR. I also plan on raising the rev limit as much as I can.

I will make a thread to follow the whole and I don't actually want to get into too much detail right now (because there isn't alot of detail to get into). The reason for this thread was to ask for information about any examples of a single turbo V12. I have already made the descission long before I made this thread.

Also how is routing exhaust from each bank into their own turbo then out any harder then getting both banks to go into a single turbo up front? It isn't harder it is just designed differently. Now which is easier: getting air from two seperate turbos that probably aren't producing the same flow and pressure to merge flow through an IC and then into the engine OR getting the charged air from a single turbo (which is already up front) to go through an IC then into the engine? and after that which set is easier to control? As far as I see it 1 turbo is easier to make and will fit much better then a twin turbo system.

Do you have any experience with tuning, racing, fabrication, etc? I'm not making any comments but as a help to anyone reading the thread could you post what kind of experience/credentials you have? Your profile has nothing not even a location

[kigango123]

What turbo are you gonna use and that are the specs?




Thats a small turbo on a supra or a skyline!

where did that come from

[hightower99]

E36 M3- 286HP
E38 7-series 282hp.

Well...

Draw your own conclusion.

I don't know what you are talking about:

E36 M3 does have 286HP

But the E38 7-series had the M73 V12 which made 326HP

I have an M70 from a E31 850Ci with manual gearbox.

Do you have any experience with tuning, racing, fabrication, etc? I'm not making any comments but as a help to anyone reading the thread could you post what kind of experience/credentials you have? Your profile has nothing not even a location

I have experience with tuning several cars including making FI systems (2 turbo, 1 SC) for normally NA cars. I don't have any real experience with racing. Fabrication... If you are talking about chassis modification then yes I do have some experience with that (roll-cages, chassis braces, welding ect.). I am pretty crap at acetelyne welding but I can do respectable MIG and TIG welds. I have done other forms of metal working/forming but I will have to learn and practise those techniques some more.

[Ferrer]

I don't know what you are talking about:

E36 M3 does have 286HP

But the E38 7-series had the M73 V12 which made 326HP

I have an M70 from a E31 850Ci with manual gearbox.

The M3 E36 was later available with a 321bhp engine.