Detroit's 2020 35 mpg Challenge

[Kitdy]

I'm in the middle of reading an article about Detroit adapting to the new CAFE standards. It doesn't really reveal anything shocking or surprising but I am enjoying reading it and figure that it's pretty applicable on a car forum.

Enjoy.

[ruim20]

Just read it, it shows that the big 3 have a long way to go just to match the current european engine standard, even longer way in the diesel front, still it's good news, lets see how long till the 35 limit changes to something lower...

[NSXType-R]

It's just a requirement for automakers for better fuel economy.

I've also heard from you guys that it's utter garbage.

What's wrong with better fuel economy?

[ruim20]

It's just a requirement for automakers for better fuel economy.

I've also heard from you guys that it's utter garbage.

What's wrong with better fuel economy?

I just think it's to optimist asking for 6.7l/100kms (35m/gal) in the USA.

And even being optimist it's a ridiculous number having a lot of european cars already achiveved that kind of mileage. that goal should be set for the next 5 years so it would be more par with the Euro/Asian engines in the same period.

[Ferrer]

But do European (or Asian) cars actually achieve that average?

[ruim20]

But do European (or Asian) cars actually achieve that average?

"some" of them do, ofc that the average of all of them is going to be much higher, probably on the 8/9L - 100kms , just guessing. for petrol cars, if it where combine with the diesel ones that already have a 50% market share in Portugal, probably close in the rest of europe, thoose numbers would drop to about 7/8L.

Just guessing ofc but no doubt a lower consuption than USA made cars.

[culver]

Better fuel economy is a good goal. It's the way they want to go about doing it. Europe didn't need fuel economy goals because gas was/is expensive. People in Europe choose to drive high mileage vehicles because it saves them money.

Gas in the US is relatively cheep. The problem with CAFE is the government is telling the car companies to make high mileage cars but the trade offs needed to get high mileage don't align with consumer demand. Take a car like the Chrysler 300 with a V8. This is a V8 powered sedan with good power, reasonable comfort etc that a typical US family might be able to afford. While it does consume more gas than say a Toyota Camry or Corolla, the extra gas bill isn't so high that it's just unaffordable for someone who can spend the ~$30k to buy the car. So there is at least some demand for that type of car. The new CAFE standard will all but kill that sort of car because it will be hard to make a profit on that type of car and meet CAFE standards.
Basically, you have a case where car companies are told they can't sell what consumers are asking for.

However, I believe I am correct in saying Europe historically has had no "mileage" regulations. This may be changing but historically European consumers have always demanded (on average) good mileage because the cost of gas was so high.

BTW, in the early days of CAFE in the US, gas was very high after the second oil embargo. The fleet average of new cars sales in those years actually exceeded the CAFE rules. Basically when consumers saw gas was expensive they wanted higher mileage cars. I assure you if US gas prices were similar to those in say England or Germany we would likely be driving cars that got mileage similar to what people get in Europe. The one difference I could see is that we still aren't space constrained. Beyond mileage a small car is an attribute in Europe simply for parking reasons. In the US, most of the time (not true in all places) we have plenty of space to maneuver and park our cars.

Still I suspect you would find the US consumer and auto sellers (both domestic and foreign selling in the US) would sell cars a lot more like what is sold in Europe if our gasoline and diesel fuel prices were similar. Personally, I would rather the US raise the price of gas rather than play CAFE games.

[Ferrer]

cuvler you say that if the Chrysler 300C sells it's because it has a market for it. Fair enough, but don't you think there are other cars that can still capture the Chrysler's market while being much more fuel efficient?

Take the Ford Mondeo Turbo for instance. It has bigger boot, it's taller and wider and a little shorter. It has a 220bhp 2.5-litre turbocharged 5 cylinder. Top speed is 245km/h (152mph) and does 0-100km/h (0-62mph) in 7"5 seconds. Average fuel consumption is 9,3l/100km (25mpg). And it weights some 348kg less than Chrysler. Furthermore it's quite a lot cheaper than the Chrysler.

It still doesn't met the standards, but don't you think that a change of mentality is needed in the US if they want to met the standards? They are still going to get the "same" just differently from what they are used too probably.

[VtecMini]

That's like, 42mpg imperial, right? And this is considered completely impossible? Even with over a decade to get there?

Wow. Just wow.

[culver]

It's not a mater of does the technology exist. It's a mater of changing the production plans and product mix slowly as to not cause a shock to the industry. It's not as simple as just saying next year we have to stop buying low mileage vehicles and start buying high mileage cars. I think a number of people miss that point.

[Ferrer]

It's not a mater of does the technology exist. It's a mater of changing the production plans and product mix slowly as to not cause a shock to the industry. It's not as simple as just saying next year we have to stop buying low mileage vehicles and start buying high mileage cars. I think a number of people miss that point.

But US industry already has the technology. Look at european offerings of Ford and General Motors, fast, frugal and practical. They could offer those cars in their domestic market. It's not a matter of making huge investments, the investments have already been done actually.

I think the problem lies within the typical american costumer. Is he/she prepared to change misconceptions regarding cars that achieve similar results to what they are used to, yet differently? Furthermore, are they prepared to pay extra money for better cars? I think that's the main problem.

[culver]

I know they have the technology. However, remember an overnight change would involve changing factories, production numbers etc. Tooling to produce the larger vehicles would become obsolete long before it was planned to be. Basically it would be a very bad macro-economic idea to change too rapidly.

Also, the problem is definitely NOT with the consumer. The consumer does what is in his or her best interest. Look at all the smelly diesels Europe had in the 70s and 80s. Air quality would have been much better if people just were willing to pay a bit extra for a clean burning gas car. Well they didn't because diesel was cheaper.

I would be just as incorrect to say that Spain was under a dictator simply because the people of Spain didn't know they would be better off with a different government. That completely ignores the costs and difficulties involved in changing. If that example is too far off feel free to ignore it.

As a rule you should assume that customers are doing what appears to be in their best short term interest. Raising the price of gas makes mileage something that they care about. It is VERY foolish to assume the choices made by the US consumer are more or less correct from the point of view of the consumer, than those of other countries.

[Ferrer]

I know they have the technology. However, remember an overnight change would involve changing factories, production numbers etc. Tooling to produce the larger vehicles would become obsolete long before it was planned to be. Basically it would be a very bad macro-economic idea to change too rapidly.

Also, the problem is definitely NOT with the consumer. The consumer does what is in his or her best interest. Look at all the smelly diesels Europe had in the 70s and 80s. Air quality would have been much better if people just were willing to pay a bit extra for a clean burning gas car. Well they didn't because diesel was cheaper.

I would be just as incorrect to say that Spain was under a dictator simply because the people of Spain didn't know they would be better off with a different government. That completely ignores the costs and difficulties involved in changing. If that example is too far off feel free to ignore it.

As a rule you should assume that customers are doing what appears to be in their best short term interest. Raising the price of gas makes mileage something that they care about. It is VERY foolish to assume the choices made by the US consumer are more or less correct from the point of view of the consumer, than those of other countries.

I agree with you on the steep change. Of course when it comes to profitability and economics it's better to let a model's life-cycle rather than change it midway through that's a given. But take the Mk 1 Focus, ford had a winner and when the time came to get a replacement for it, a better car, what did Ford do? They introduced the Mk 2 in Europe and instead produced a million facelifts for the Mk 1 for the US. That leads me to believe that either Ford is wrong, or the consumers are fine with a 10 year old car. That may seem to prove my point that american consumers prefer to trade price for excellence. The live rear axles and 4 speed autos also seem to head in this direction.

I'm not saying we are better because we have high-tech cars and you aren't because your cars are less advanced. It's just different needs.

Let me ask a question, how many americans would pay $19,000 (before taxes) for a 115bhp 5 door hatch with a 5-speed manual? May I guess not many?

[Kitdy]

As a rule you should assume that customers are doing what appears to be in their best short term interest. Raising the price of gas makes mileage something that they care about. It is VERY foolish to assume the choices made by the US consumer are more or less correct from the point of view of the consumer, than those of other countries.

That being said, I think that many American, hell Canadians as well have many hang ups about certain cars still; less so in Canada than in the States however. I would wager than in many lower and middle class rural areas in the States, especially in the South and Mid-West Americans take pride in buying American cars even if they are inferior in build quality to their typically Japanese competitors.

I think in general it is safe to assume that the United States exhibits a pride in home made products more than Europeans do, especially when it comes to cars - however this is only a cultural observation I have made and this could be incorrect. This possible pro-American bias that is exhibited in many rural areas probably results in a significant portion of entry level sales for the Big 3. Surprisingly enough, the bias also exists in rural Canada as well - you are much less likely to see Corollas and Civics in small town Ontario.

Unfortunately I have something I don't like doing, making generalizations without hard facts, making assumptions, and using trends to make extrapolations. I could have not said anything at all, but I think there is likely truth in my words and I wanted to illustrate that for sure, the consumer definitely does not always make the most intelligent decision apparent for them. Brand loyalty plays a strong part in many buyers decisions and as I think is clear, brand loyalty is certainly not always a solid indicator of quality.

As for another example, I could have used the upper middle and uper class's North Americans penchant for expensive non-US cars such as Lexus, Acura, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz. Though these cars in the past 10 or so years were superior in build quality to their American counterparts from companies like Buick and Cadillac, these brands have now leveled the playing field and have to struggle to fight against the non-US's cars customers brand allegiance and perceived superior quality for imports. Counter this with premium American cars costing sometimes significantly less, and you can see that the consumer is probably letting bias take hold of them when they purchase a car like an M5 over an STS-V.

In Canada at least, BMWs dominance of the entry level premium car market is near total and has been for some years. I think the newly redesigned CTS despite all it's rave reviews will have a difficult time making a dent in the 3-series' reign as kind of the market.

This only yet again goes to show that consumers are not necessarily intelligent with their money and make many foolish choices.

Let me ask a question, how many americans would pay $19,000 (before taxes) for a 115bhp 5 door hatch with a 5-speed manual? May I guess not many?

Why does everyone forget Canada? We have very similar tastes that Americans do but when ever a European/North American discussion breaks out, people seem to forget the 30 million odd people up North. I suppose Mexico is also part of North America, but for cultural reasons it is easier to associate it with Central America.

[Ferrer]

Why does everyone forget Canada? We have very similar tastes that Americans do but when ever a European/North American discussion breaks out, people seem to forget the 30 million odd people up North. I suppose Mexico is also part of North America, but for cultural reasons it is easier to associate it with Central America.

Ok, so would canadians pay such money for such car?