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Thread: 2008 Formula One French Grand Prix

  1. #46
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    I wonder if McLaren did that?
    McLaren claim they didnt see it coming, so probably not. In other motorsports as well i think the teams can be directed to re-address the position before a penalty will be given.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    "not able to place his car in front of Vettel" -- where's the evidence for that ?
    I've given a Hamilton quotation where he said he lost control.
    He HAD passed. Just then unabel to keep it there.
    you ask the question and you answer it in the next sentence
    If he had been in control he could have placed the car in front of Vettel...(if he had made a full and proper pass)
    Last edited by henk4; 06-24-2008 at 05:49 AM.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    "not able to place his car in front of Vettel" -- where's the evidence for that ?
    Hamilton did not ran wide just to check out that part of the circuit, now did he? He missed the corner because there was no way he could make the corner without braking and slipping in behind the driver he was making his move on. I don't see why else he would run wide.

    As for your argument about us not wanting overtaking manouvres to take place. I love passes, but I do prefer to be made on the section between the white lines. Maybe the should use the Le Mans type run-off areas with deep grooves, which make sure there is no advantage to cutting corners.
    If you should see a man walking down a crowded street talking aloud to himself, don't run in the opposite direction, but run towards him, because he's a poet. You have nothing to fear from the poet - but the truth.

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  4. #49
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    Or put a wall there...then certainly no one will cut a corner!

  5. #50
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    aha the Melissen double-team move

    Guys, there is NO EVIDENCE to support any allegation that he coudl or coudl not make it.
    I cited him, he did lose crontrol and had to bring the car back in.
    I still say you look at the vid and he tries to go right but doesn't. Perhaps cos Vettel was there or not. HE was on the inside and Vettel shoudl then give way That's one of the standard overtaking maneouvres on circuit racing. Go on the outside of first corner to position yourself on the inside of the second and gain the advantage.

    There's no point "debating" this any longer. I think Hamilton was performaing the same actions I would do in a race. There is no evidence to prove it or prove otherwise.

    I prefer to give drivers the benefit of the doubt, because if we dont' then all overtaking will lead to drive-thru penalties
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  6. #51
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    He cut the corner, isn't that evidence enough?
    If you should see a man walking down a crowded street talking aloud to himself, don't run in the opposite direction, but run towards him, because he's a poet. You have nothing to fear from the poet - but the truth.

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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
    He cut the corner, isn't that evidence enough?
    no.
    If a driver loses control and corrects adn in doing so cuts a corner they are not penalised.
    It's considered a "racing incident" ... ie it's expected that when pushing the limits occasionally they'll over step and lose control. To penalise a driver for losing control would only mean drivers driving at 9/10s
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    no.
    If a driver loses control and corrects adn in doing so cuts a corner they are not penalised.
    It's considered a "racing incident" ... ie it's expected that when pushing the limits occasionally they'll over step and lose control. To penalise a driver for losing control would only mean drivers driving at 9/10s
    You should give Hamilton a little more credit. He did not just loose it; he lost it because there was a Torro Rosso on the inside of him.
    If you should see a man walking down a crowded street talking aloud to himself, don't run in the opposite direction, but run towards him, because he's a poet. You have nothing to fear from the poet - but the truth.

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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
    he lost it because there was a Torro Rosso on the inside of him.
    OR ..... On his OUTSIDE by the time he lost it.
    The sequence was right then left. He overtook on the outside positioning for the inside for the second corner.
    As stated, without external evidence it's moot. Clearly a racing incident and unfairly punished.
    OR do you disagree with my comments on where it will lead if the F1 decide that moves like that will always be punished ?
    Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 06-26-2008 at 04:00 AM.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    OR ..... On his OUTSIDE by the time he lost it.
    The Torro Rosso had the inside line at the chicane.

    I think we will continue to disagree, but don't you think that the team should have erred on the side of caution and given up the position? Given up one place or risking a drive through don't really balance out, do they? My immediate reaction was surprise that Hamilton did not give up the position.
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  11. #56
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    Wouter, you're using 20-20 hindsight which is a little unfair on the team
    There can be no "inside line" on a sequence of corners. You can have inside on ONE of them, not all
    I've already covered the effect it woudl have on teams and drivers if every overtake/error/cut became a "give up the place" choice
    I've gone over the coverage one more time and based on speed, I still contend he was AHEAD of Vettel by normal position analysis in racing. By his own words he "lost control" and went for the safest option. Being already ahead he wasn't in a position of "havving gained" by the cut !
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    There can be no "inside line" on a sequence of corners. You can have inside on ONE of them, not all
    Sequence of corners? There is straight between with the slightest of kinks between the hairpin and the chicane he cut/missed/lost control.
    If you should see a man walking down a crowded street talking aloud to himself, don't run in the opposite direction, but run towards him, because he's a poet. You have nothing to fear from the poet - but the truth.

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  13. #58
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    YouTube - Hamilton overtakes Vettel - slow motion

    0:40 "sequence of corners"

    0:33 Hamilton now clearly "ahead" of Vettle and then the right hander. Taking the speeds into account, Hamilton is well ahead by then
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    YouTube - Hamilton overtakes Vettel - slow motion

    0:40 "sequence of corners"

    0:33 Hamilton now clearly "ahead" of Vettle and then the right hander. Taking the speeds into account, Hamilton is well ahead by then
    speed is irrelevant when it is too high to negotiate the next corner, hence saint Louis lost control.
    I already pointed at the moves JVilleneuve use to make at the end of the Indianapolis
    straight, where he was well ahead of the person he would overtake, but failed to make the corner.....it looked very spectacular but it could not be considered overtaking....
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  15. #60
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    By taking the speed into accoutn I meant in terms of analysing the footage to estimate where Vettel's car woudl be in relation ot Hamilton. Hence my suggestiong that in normal racing terms he had made the maneouvre.

    And comparing cars with dubious handling and drivers with more guts than skill isn't that useful. After all if we review the great F1 races then they are full of examples of drivers taking the outside line of a first corner and then holding position for the other one and back far enough to remmber some wheel banging going on

    AND again you're sounding like the Ferraristi approach has migrated to anti-Hamiltonism
    A driver cannot tell in advance if and when they will "lose control". That's the beauty of good racing, drivers right on the limit. You're using 20-20 hindsight in your judgement adn that is what I'm pointing out is wrong.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

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