2008 Formula One French Grand Prix

[henk4]

By taking the speed into accoutn I meant in terms of analysing the footage to estimate where Vettel's car woudl be in relation ot Hamilton. Hence my suggestiong that in normal racing terms he had made the maneouvre.

And comparing cars with dubious handling and drivers with more guts than skill isn't that useful. After all if we review the great F1 races then they are full of examples of drivers taking the outside line of a first corner and then holding position for the other one and back far enough to remmber some wheel banging going on

AND again you're sounding like the Ferraristi approach has migrated to anti-Hamiltonism
A driver cannot tell in advance if and when they will "lose control". That's the beauty of good racing, drivers right on the limit. You're using 20-20 hindsight in your judgement adn that is what I'm pointing out is wrong.

look, it is simple: what happened was that Hamilton passed Vettel with a speed that was too high for him to keep the car on track, so he had to use the green parts to complete has manoeuvre. It is not allowed to use the run-offs to gain position. If he had done the move with a sufficiently low speed to be able to negotiate the corner, he would not have overtaken Vettel, hence the "punishment" was justified.

[Wouter Melissen]

So as long as driver is simply 'losing control' he can not be accused of cutting a corner?

[Matra et Alpine]

You're getting the point Wouter.
THEN the stewards have the right choice to determine if it was DELIBERATE or not.
This has been accepted practise in the 30-odd years I've watched Grand Prix

Is there any evidence that Hamilton DELIBERATLY planned the cut ? NO. He passed Vettel - ie his front wheels were ahead of his. He attempted to turn in, he lost control on the marbles and took the safest option.

Applying a penalty is declaring GUILT without evidence. THere is no proof and only
anti-"Louis" sentiment driving the circumstantial data available to punish him and Mclaren

[henk4]

Applying a penalty is declaring GUILT without evidence. THere is no proof and only
anti-"Louis" sentiment driving the circumstantial data available to punish him and Mclaren

of course if Barrichello had overtaken let's say Fisichella in the same way and would receive a drive through penalty, very few people would have cried wolf...

[Kitdy]

I have just watched it several times on F1's website in high quality and in slow motion and it seems to me from an admittedly amateur perspective that Lewis didn't lose control on the corner and instead carried too much speed by braking too late. Now if I am thinking about this correctly, Lewis couldn't have made the pass stick without going off and so he illegally gained the position. Mind you, this is all interpretable as you could easily argue Lewis had the position and simply lost it on the turn in but I do not think this is the case - I think he was too hot form the pass and this caused him to miss the chicane.

At first look, I agreed with Matra but were I forced to make a call, I think I would have made the same one as the stewards.

My question is what the hell was was Vettel doing getting so defensive so early on that stretch - he practically gifted Lewis around the outside, maybe wasn't keeping a careful enough eye in the mirrors. I think he shoulda rode the middle path a little longer and waited until Lewis darted to one side and then gone defensive.

Yeah I watched it again - it looks to me like the McLaren was understeering because Lewis was going too fast at the turn in.

[henk4]

I have just watched it several times on F1's website in high quality and in slow motion and it seems to me from an admittedly amateur perspective that Lewis didn't lose control on the corner and instead carried too much speed by braking too late. Now if I am thinking about this correctly, Lewis couldn't have made the pass stick without going off and so he illegally gained the position. Mind you, this is all interpretable as you could easily argue Lewis had the position and simply lost it on the turn in but I do not think this is the case - I think he was too hot form the pass and this caused him to miss the chicane.

At first look, I agreed with Matra but were I forced to make a call, I think I would have made the same one as the stewards.

My question is what the hell was was Vettel doing getting so defensive so early on that stretch - he practically gifted Lewis around the outside, maybe wasn't keeping a careful enough eye in the mirrors. I think he shoulda rode the middle path a little longer and waited until Lewis darted to one side and then gone defensive.

Yeah I watched it again - it looks to me like the McLaren was understeering because Lewis was going too fast at the turn in.

what Vettel was doing was making just enough speed to negotiate the corner, Hamilton obviously did not and he lost it....

[Matra et Alpine]

of course if Barrichello had overtaken let's say Fisichella in the same way and would receive a drive through penalty, very few people would have cried wolf...

well you know me.
I'm not a personal or team "fanboy".
If it was the same move by Glock on Coulthard I'd have given the same support.
The driver tried to make a legitimate pass - as was pointed out ... the space was there from Vettel leading to it. He got there. Turned in , possibly marbles lost him the grip and he took the safest option. All the 20-20 perfect hindisht in the world cannot assist a driver in knowing exactly how much grip there is ... or we'd all be as well watching Sclextric races.

To have punished a driver for doing an overtake attempt was not on.
I've made the point about the precendent this potentially creates and how that coudl destroy F1 overtaking once and for all and so I will go silent. Points are there for re-reading supporting the case.

[Kitdy]

what Vettel was doing was making just enough speed to negotiate the corner, Hamilton obviously did not and he lost it....

Yeah but he was on the wrong side of the track...

[Wouter Melissen]

Yeah but he was on the wrong side of the track...

Vettel was on the inside the entire stretch.

[Kitdy]

Vettel was on the inside the entire stretch.

Yes, which was the wrong side of the track to approach the corner from. I am just saying he committed to his defense too early.

[henk4]

Yes, which was the wrong side of the track to approach the corner from. I am just saying he committed to his defense too early.

that depends totally on the next corner....

[henk4]

He got there. Turned in , possibly marbles lost him the grip.

If he had got there, he would not have been on marbles....

(and don't mention Coulthard, because you that would even be more biased)

[Wouter Melissen]

Yes, which was the wrong side of the track to approach the corner from. I am just saying he committed to his defense too early.

Have you ever watched a race?

[Kitdy]

Have you ever watched a race?

Several. Vettel was on the right side of the track for a right left chicane, last I checked, this was not ideal for traversing the corner.

Furthermore, his early commitment to defending the inside allowed Hamilton to make the illegal pass.

How do you see it?

[henk4]

Several. Vettel was on the right side of the track for a right left chicane, last I checked, this was not ideal for traversing the corner.

Furthermore, his early commitment to defending the inside allowed Hamilton to make the illegal pass.

How do you see it?

if he was on a right left combo, then approaching the right from the inside is good, because it will leave you more space for the following left....if you look at the video, at one moment you will see Hamilton on the extreme right as well (but going so fast that he lost it)
(Don't know whether you ski, but try to take a slalom track and you'll know what I mean...)