2008 Formula One Italian Grand Prix

[RacingManiac]

Great drive for Vettel, made absolutely perfect use of the equipment and strategy....he should really stick with STR rather than move to Red Bull proper. Hopeless race for Kovi, how Hamilton seem to be flying and he just sits there is beyond me. Ferrari is getting into a habit of shooting themselves in the foot, this weekend they did by signing Kimi for 2 more years... Massa's race got f-ed up when he came out behind that gaggle of cars...he could've had a good result, he wasn't as slow as Raikkonen. What were Kimi thinking was beyond me....being as fast as he was at the end just puts salt on the wound for Ferrari....

Hamilton is fast in this kind of condition, no doubt about it, but he is doing the same thing that found him his only gravel trap in Shanghai last year. He kills his tires. And wet tires don't tolerate that. IMO thats definitely his weakest pt of his game right now. In dry races running proper strategy he can get away with that(unless you are in Turkey with a quadruple apex lefthander)....but the more this kind of race happens he'll throw away points...

Ferrari is in for a world of hurt right now. China, Japan, and Singapore at night aren't going to be blisterly hot and good chance to be wet/dry mix race. Their car don't work at all in that kind of races....

I'd bet lots of the Minardi guys at STR right now are freaking out....

[charged]

Not to take the blame off Ham, but they both were guilty - Webber could slow down a bit to avoid the collision, but he didn't.

No its called racing room, its part of racing... if you have a car on the outside inside of you .....you give them room, you can hold them out to give them a late entry but you dont run them off the road

Webber did slow down because if he didnt he would of hit Hamilton... or webber could do what Coulthard does now and slam into people.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Great drive for Vettel, made absolutely perfect use of the equipment and strategy....he should really stick with STR rather than move to Red Bull proper.

next year every team is supposed to have its own designed car, so STR is looking for a big partner who can afford the development of a car, Mateschitz can't afford the development of two different cars so he wants to sell its shares of the team.

[faksta]

No its called racing room, its part of racing... if you have a car on the outside inside of you .....you give them room, you can hold them out to give them a late entry but you dont run them off the road

Webber did slow down because if he didnt he would of hit Hamilton... or webber could do what Coulthard does now and slam into people.

You're a driver, not me, but IIRC Webber did slow down only because he had to brake to get into the curve. Still he tried to turn before Hamilton (from what I've seen...). Again I say, I didn't like Lewis' maneur, but it's not just 100% on him.

And, of course, like Leon and Ferrer have already said, the situation with Glock was way worse.

[RacingManiac]

IMO this ought to be a wakeup call for UK F1 media circus. For years they criticize someone like Schumi for being ruthless on track. They always like to pointout UK drivers are "gentlemanly" or "smooth" or whatnot. Well being gentlemanly didn't get the likes of Button or DC anywhere. In comes Hamilton out of the same mold as someone like Senna or Schumi(and Alonso). Someone who is literally willing to do anything to get the guy infront of him to win. UK media just kinda ignores that and praises saint lewis to no end. In their view he is still the boyscout. And all harms are done by others to him. Just read all the report on the chicane gate for Spa. All report said Raikkonen FORCED Lewis onto the curb, and left him NO CHOICE but to take the escape road. Well failing to mention that it was a low percentage move, Lewis did his share of forcing people onto something rather today, sometimes totally unnecessary, and UK media likes to call it "Good bit of aggresive driving".....

F1 could be so much better if you get rid of the current media circus with someone new....

[Matra et Alpine]

armchair racing decisions are evn MORE Likely to be ignored ny the race stewards than a teams legitimate complaint

THere are many lines on a race track. IF a driver choses to put himself in a position where HE IS NOT IN FRONT and coming from off the racing line he/she has no compaint if they find themself "squeezed". They should give up the space ... not wait to get "pushed on the grass" or "bang wheels". Both had options, they cose to stay in and let the other driver give up space. A bit of thinking like a driver after last rtace then you are NOT going to give up space in to a chicane in case you end up having to cut the scond part adn then worry the whoel race if you will be penalised or not Commentator today mentioned that Kove woudl wait till the next corner before atacking having conceded. NOBODY has written that it is one corner, so who knows ? It would be a foolish driver to allow themselves to be in that position

Nakajima was an idiot in trying that on the fastest corner. DC does NOT have to concede the speed to allow a faster car to not run wide on the corner. Compare GLock and DC earlier ?

I sense a whole silly Brit driver backlash because Hamilton is a young guy with skill. A repeat of the growrth of Schumi-hate ? Unwarranted imho.

Guys who think it "bad" need to go back and view the last 30+ years of F1. It's a bunch of pussies nowadays in comparison !!!

Charged, your views as a driver are legit for amateur racing. When it's full pro with sponsors and top funding then the cost of a few panel repairs is irrelevant and "holding position" and incurreing a few bumps are accepted. Like you, our track looks VERY poorly on the club racer with that approach. But when BTCC comes there are door handles, mirrors and bumpers spread all over the circuit I think using your epxerience as judge for F1 loses that extra "flexibility"

[Matra et Alpine]

RM, british media are bumpkins and journalists are idiots inspired by the desire to have a sensationlist headline and maximum exposure. Jeez look at James Allen in the ITV F1 team

So consistency and honesty don't come in to it

and many of them are either too young or have selective memory in forgetting that "Hunt the shunt" deserved the title ( just the name, not F1 )

[Sauc3]

To add onto Matra's post, keep in mind that it was very wet with the Hamilton/Glock incident, and according to the commentators the mirrors are unusable in those conditions. Put yourself in Hamilton's position, you overtake someone, accelerate off and drive on the racing line because it gives the best traction. You wouldn't expect the person you just passed to accelerate as well if not better than yourself, which happened in this case, and with the mirrors unusable you can't see that he does...

Not saying that this is 100% that this is what happened, but there does not have to be malicious intent behind every single tiny incident in F1, it could simply be driver error and a harmless (noone got hurt did they?) mistake...

[RacingManiac]

Well I am pretty sure Hamilton was aware of what he was doing probably 85% of the time. He knew exactly how to get by someone, and defend afterward. His move on Alonso was a good showing of that, and one of his move at the first chicane(I really forgot who it was he passed, since he did so many of them), where he went deep, but got back on to the track mid-chicane and just purposely slow away from the exit with basically his car infront of the guy he passed so he can't accelerate neither....the guy is VERY good, and very cunning....I am a fan of how he drives as a driver, but just not the guy or the team he drives for. But he is like the 2nd coming of Schumacher in his driving style....

[LeonOfTheDead]

Well I am pretty sure Hamilton was aware of what he was doing probably 85% of the time. He knew exactly how to get by someone, and defend afterward. His move on Alonso was a good showing of that, and one of his move at the first chicane(I really forgot who it was he passed, since he did so many of them), where he went deep, but got back on to the track mid-chicane and just purposely slow away from the exit with basically his car infront of the guy he passed so he can't accelerate neither....the guy is VERY good, and very cunning....I am a fan of how he drives as a driver, but just not the guy or the team he drives for. But he is like the 2nd coming of Schumacher in his driving style....

I agree.
He passed a lot of time looking in the mirrors, he was paying a lot of attention to drivers he just passed, so he was pretty much always aware of what he was doing, imo. In the Glock's case, it was obvious that Glock was there since they were side by side just some meters before.
He isn't so different from Schumacher or Alonso in their first years, but, differently from them, he didn't start to race with Jordan and Minardi, so "humility" doesn't appear in his vocabulary right now.
He is fast, and last year I really appreciated his performances at the beginning of the year since there was finally something new and interesting. but he soon started to develop this "spoiled-knowitall" attitude, and I bean to dislike him, as a driver.
Take Vettel on the other hand, or Roseberg and Kovalainen. they are as young or even more than Hamilton, but aren't so "arrogant".

[RacingManiac]

they all kinda have to work to get there, where as really Hamilton was pluck into the fastest car on the grid. granted it takes a lot to perform rightaway underpressure, but he was pretty lucky to be where he is right from the getgo....

[Matra et Alpine]

RM, Hamilton did his proving in the lower orders,. He has talent.
Peeps need to decide what they prefer ... nice guys like DC who was always slated for what he did in race because he always did the "right thing" in the McLaren or more Sennas

[Ferrer]

To add onto Matra's post, keep in mind that it was very wet with the Hamilton/Glock incident, and according to the commentators the mirrors are unusable in those conditions. Put yourself in Hamilton's position, you overtake someone, accelerate off and drive on the racing line because it gives the best traction. You wouldn't expect the person you just passed to accelerate as well if not better than yourself, which happened in this case, and with the mirrors unusable you can't see that he does...

Not saying that this is 100% that this is what happened, but there does not have to be malicious intent behind every single tiny incident in F1, it could simply be driver error and a harmless (noone got hurt did they?) mistake...

Maybe once, but Hamilton did it three times. Fisichella, Glock and Weber.

[RacingManiac]

RM, Hamilton did his proving in the lower orders,. He has talent.
Peeps need to decide what they prefer ... nice guys like DC who was always slated for what he did in race because he always did the "right thing" in the McLaren or more Sennas

but even then he still jumped into F1 in a McLaren, not a Minardi, Jordan or a Sauber. Then you have poor guy like Heidfeld who worked his whole junior rank climbing the Mercedes ladder and gets f-ed up when someone named Kimi Raikkonen showed up....

[Dino Scuderia]

All this 'right of way' talk reminds me of this(since Matra brought up Senna):

Showdown at Suzuka (1993)


Much speculation surrounds Ayrton Senna's encounter with Eddie Irvine after the 1993 Japanese GP. The following is a transcript of that now infamous event ...

The scene: Eddie Irvine is sitting alone on a table in the Jordan cabin. Jordan's commercial manager, Rubens Barichello and several other people, mostly Team members, are also present. Suzuka was Irvine's first ever F1 race and everyone is watching a re-run of the Senna-Hill-Irvine incident.

Suddenly the door opens and in walks Ayrton Senna accompanied by Norman Howell, director of communications for McLaren and Giorgio Ascanelli, Senna's engineer.

Senna is looking for Irvine, but either he doesn't see him or he doesn't recognise him. Eddie Irvine raises his hand and Senna walks over to him ...

Irvine : Here!

Senna : What the **** do you think you were doing?

Irvine : I was racing!

Senna : You were racing? Do you know the rule that you're supposed to let the leaders come by when you're a back marker?

Irvine : If you were going fast enough, it was no problem.

Senna : I overtook you! And you went three times off the road in front of me, at the same place, like ****ing idiot, where there was oil. And you were throwing stones and all things in front of me for three laps. When I took you, you realised I was ahead of you. And when I came up behind Hill, because he was on slicks and in difficulties, you should have stayed behind me. You took a very big risk to put me out of the race.

Irvine : Where did I put you in any danger?

Senna : You didn't put me in any danger?

Irvine : Did I touch you? Did I touch you once?

Senna : No, but you were that much from touching me, and I happened to be the ****ing leader. I HAPPENED TO BE THE ****ING LEADER!

Irvine : A miss is as good as a mile.

Senna : I tell you something. If you don't behave properly in the next event, you can just rethink what you do. I can guarantee you that.

Irvine : The stewards said "No problem. Nothing was wrong."

Senna : Yeah? You wait till Australia. You wait till Australia, when the stewards will talk to you. Then you tell me if they tell you this.

Irvine : Hey, I'm out there to do the best for me.

Senna : This is not correct. You want to do well. I understand, because I've been there I understand. But it's very unprofessional. If you are a back marker, because you happen to be lapped ...

Irvine : But I would have followed you if you'd overtaken Hill!

Senna : You should let the leader go by ...

Irvine : I understand that fully!

Senna : ... and not come by and do the things you did. You nearly hit Hill in front of me three times, because I saw, and I could of collected you and him as a result, and that's not the way to do that.

Irvine : But I'm racing! I'm racing! You just happened to ...

Senna : You're not racing! You're driving like a ****ing idiot. You're not a racing driver, you're a ****ing idiot!

Irvine: You talk, you talk. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Senna : I was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Irvine : Yes. I was battling with Hill.

Senna : Really? Really? Just tell me one thing. Who is supposed to have the call? You, or the leader of the race who comes through to lap you?

Irvine : The leader of the race.

Senna : So what have you done?

Irvine : You, you were too slow, and I had to overtake you to try to get at Hill.

Senna : Really? How did I lap you if I was too slow?

Irvine : Rain. Because on slicks you were quicker than me, on wets you weren't.

Senna : Really? Really? How did I come and overtake you on wets?

Irvine : Huh?

Senna : How come I overtook you on wets?

Irvine : I can't remember that. I don't actually remember the race.

Senna : Exactly. Because you are not competent enough to remember. That's how it goes you know.

Irvine : Fair enough. Fair enough. That's what you think.

Senna : You be careful guy.

Irvine : I will. I'll watch out for you.

Senna : You're gonna have problems not with me only, but with lots of other guys, also the FIA.

Irvine : Yeah?

Senna : You bet.

Irvine : Yeah? Good.

Senna : Yeah? It's good to know that.

Irvine : See you out there.

Senna : It's good to know that.

Irvine : See you out there ...

Appearing to turn away Senna then turns back and hits Irvine with his left hand. The blow lands on the right side of Irvine's head. Irvine loses his balance and falls off the table. Senna is still shouting as he is hustled towards the door.

Irvine yells "Insurance claim there!"

Senna (leaving) retorts "You got to learn to respect where you're going wrong!"

Ayrton Senna Suzuka 1993