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Thread: Loeb: a unique talent

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    isn't that how he started in the Xsara kit car?
    I was thinking more in terms Jean Ragnotti almost beating Markku Alen in his little Renault 11 Turbo in Portugal '87.

    The late 2 litre KCs were clearly at a performance advantage in tarmac events.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I was thinking more in terms Jean Ragnotti almost beating Markku Alen in his little Renault 11 Turbo in Portugal '87.

    The late 2 litre KCs were clearly at a performance advantage in tarmac events.
    I am not aware of the details of each historic rallye, but I can also imagine that in case of high attrition rates of the AWD cars, the FWD or RWD cars move slowly to the top. (Saying nothing bad about Ragnotti here).
    And BTW one of the reasons that modern rallying is less challenging than it used to be is found in the context of road safety. You cannot simply have these things organised on public roads, without having to employ armadas of policemen to (one) protect normal traffic and (two) to keep the idiots from the roads that want to be as close as possible to the cars.
    On another note, I am really wondering whether a proper Delta S4 these days would actually be faster than a C4 WRC.
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  3. #18
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    On a tight, twisty rally stage, a modern WRC car with its higher torque and vastly more sophisticated 4WD system would be faster than the old Group B cars, yet on the more open and faster stages it'd probably fall more to the Group B side.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  4. #19
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    [QUOTE=henk4;842972]And BTW one of the reasons that modern rallying is less challenging than it used to be is found in the context of road safety. You cannot simply have these things organised on public roads, without having to employ armadas of policemen to (one) protect normal traffic and (two) to keep the idiots from the roads that want to be as close as possible to the cars.


    and here i was thinking it was just so they could charge us spectators to watch

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    (two) to keep the idiots from the roads that want to be as close as possible to the cars.
    That was something I always loved in rallying - the fans with balls of steel that stand right next to the track or even run onto the track to take photos. Then they assist in crashes to get the car going again.

    Brilliant.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Rallying, though, was the last of the true challenges.
    Well, if we are talking about sports (in Hemmingway's defintion), you may conisder motorsports dead, but there's still bull fighting and mountain climbing.

    Or bull fighting on a mountain. Were I not adverse to bullfighting, I would definitely pay to see that.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    That was something I always loved in rallying - the fans with balls of steel that stand right next to the track or even run onto the track to take photos. Then they assist in crashes to get the car going again.

    Brilliant.
    unless it goes horribly wrong. Portugal springs to mind. It is were the authorities have to act. It is not like a closed circuit where you go at your own risk and where you are permanently reminded that "motorracing is dangerous" We always have to sign a declaration that we acknowledge that and will put in no charges against the organisers in case things go wrong.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  8. #23
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    So Ferrer, what you are saying that no driver will ever be as good as those that raced in the Group B era? What else can Loeb do than win the World Championship five times in a row? Do you want him to remove the turbo and try again? Your adoration for the good old days has played tricks on your mind.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
    So Ferrer, what you are saying that no driver will ever be as good as those that raced in the Group B era? What else can Loeb do than win the World Championship five times in a row? Do you want him to remove the turbo and try again? Your adoration for the good old days has played tricks on your mind.
    Agreed. The problem with comparing modern drivers to those of the past, be it the early 20th century with the likes of men braving their lives in cars that can kill you quicker than a blink of an eye, the 50's with the rise of Formula 1, and the 80's with Group B racers, is impossible. The likes of safety and financing have taken over in motorsport and leaves the dream of pitting Fangio, Senna, Schumacher, and Hamilton an automotive enthusiasts unfound dream.

    Admittedly, current drivers tend to be less 'manly' and drift more towards the diva side of the spectrum, but their talent is hard to refute. Congratulations to Seb for his 5th straight championship.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockefella View Post
    Admittedly, current drivers tend to be less 'manly' and drift more towards the diva side of the spectrum, but their talent is hard to refute. Congratulations to Seb for his 5th straight championship.
    Despite being a talented gymnast, I would not call Loeb less manly.
    If you should see a man walking down a crowded street talking aloud to himself, don't run in the opposite direction, but run towards him, because he's a poet. You have nothing to fear from the poet - but the truth.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
    Despite being a talented gymnast, I would not call Loeb less manly.
    Maybe manly wasn't the best term to use.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
    So Ferrer, what you are saying that no driver will ever be as good as those that raced in the Group B era? What else can Loeb do than win the World Championship five times in a row? Do you want him to remove the turbo and try again? Your adoration for the good old days has played tricks on your mind.
    I never mentioned Group B in the first place.

    And again, I never said Loeb hasn't got talent or speed either.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I never mentioned Group B in the first place.

    And again, I never said Loeb hasn't got talent or speed either.
    oh, oh, trying to get out of it through semantics. Read your posts again and look at the date you mentioned (1987) and it is clear what you mean. I suppose that those "all time greats" in your opinion are likely to emerge from the ranks of that area....or do you include Vinatier/Nicolas/Elford/Zasada to name a few from the pre turbo/awd area?

    It is not Loeb's fault that he was around to compete with "the old time greats" he has to beat the current generation of drivers, and does so consistently and already for five years. Let's call him a "new time great"
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    oh, oh, trying to get out of it through semantics. Read your posts again and look at the date you mentioned (1987) and it is clear what you mean. I suppose that those "all time greats" in your opinion are likely to emerge from the ranks of that area....or do you include Vinatier/Nicolas/Elford/Zasada to name a few from the pre turbo/awd area?

    It is not Loeb's fault that he was around to compete with "the old time greats" he has to beat the current generation of drivers, and does so consistently and already for five years. Let's call him a "new time great"
    Of dourse I include Vinatier, Elford, Mikkola, Makkinen and all those. Alpines and Porsches battling with front wheel drive Fulvias and rear wheel drive Escorts. That was proper rallying. 1987 is actually post-Group B era.

    In my opinion the Group B era was clearly excessive, especially from 1984 on. Cars had gotten just to performant. Engines advanced clearly but everything else, including safety, hadn't and as a result some really bad accidents happened.

    And no it's not Loeb's fault the current situation of rallying. More likely FIA and David Raichards because they decided rallying had to be a spectator and television friendly when it never was. Therefore the slowly phased out what made rallying great. Night stages, long stages, geographically spread rallies, the endurance factor, mistakes and retirements,...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Of dourse I include Vinatier, Elford, Mikkola, Makkinen and all those. Alpines and Porsches battling with front wheel drive Fulvias and rear wheel drive Escorts. That was proper rallying. 1987 is actually post-Group B era.

    In my opinion the Group B era was clearly excessive, especially from 1984 on. Cars had gotten just to performant. Engines advanced clearly but everything else, including safety, hadn't and as a result some really bad accidents happened.

    And no it's not Loeb's fault the current situation of rallying. More likely FIA and David Raichards because they decided rallying had to be a spectator and television friendly when it never was. Therefore the slowly phased out what made rallying great. Night stages, long stages, geographically spread rallies, the endurance factor, mistakes and retirements,...
    You cannot blame Dave Richards for that, as I think you will agree that it is socially unacceptable these days to go for long (night) stages on public roads. (The East African Safari Rallye has not been deleted for nothing and we don't want Gumball nonsense). The current format is the only way to allow Rallye cars (of whatever nature) to battle it out, with the added advantage that a confined area offers much better options for the TV as you mentioned.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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