Loeb: a unique talent

[Ferrer]

You cannot blame Dave Richards for that, as I think you will agree that it is socially unacceptable these days to go for long (night) stages on public roads. (The East African Safari Rallye has not been deleted for nothing and we don't want Gumball nonsense). The current format is the only way to allow Rallye cars (of whatever nature) to battle it out, with the added advantage that a confined area offers much better options for the TV as you mentioned.

I disagree with you.

Last year I attended the Costa-Brava Rally which is now part of the spanish rally championship. It had night stages and they are definitely special. The cars feels closer and the whole experience is much stronger. You could hear the cars in the mountains kilometres before they actually reach your point and you could see the lights reflecting in the distance.

And I frankly don't see the problem with all the others (except for closing the roads for the Safari, I agree that'd be a good safety measure).

[Matra et Alpine]

Fans of rallying is what killed the great events.
The enthusiasts knew all the "rules" for spectating and obeyed the posted signs, the notes in the press/programs and espsecially the marshalls.
THen rallying became somethgin that attracted fanatics who had no deeper interest in the sport and it was a way to show bravado, claim heroes and be a sheep.
There was little option but to start closing the stages, stopping the night stages ( because you can't marshall them to PC levels ).
Real rallynig RIP, killed by the morons

[Wouter Melissen]

I still fail to see what the current state of rallying has to do with Loeb's extraordinary ability. Ferrer are you really saying that no driver is now able to become one of the greats, just because of the state of rallying?

[Ferrer]

I still fail to see what the current state of rallying has to do with Loeb's extraordinary ability. Ferrer are you really saying that no driver is now able to become one of the greats, just because of the state of rallying?

I don't know I guess it was more a rant against the current state of rallying.

But then again maybe yes.

It's not the same driving a rally with 353km of stages in which if you retire you can restart the next day (Catalunya '08) than a rally with 1129km of stages in which if you make a mistake it's the end (Tour de Corse '79).

[Wouter Melissen]

I don't know I guess it was more a rant against the current state of rallying.

But then again maybe yes.

It's not the same driving a rally with 353km of stages in which if you retire you can restart the next day (Catalunya '08) than a rally with 1129km of stages in which if you make a mistake it's the end (Tour de Corse '79).

Well that's all completely irrelevant when looking at the skill of Loeb. None of your heroes has dominated his peers in such a fashion, beating world champions (Carlos Sainz and Colin McRae) in their first season. I have no doubt that he would have been on top in any era. What also springs to mind are his wins on every surface. He is the first non-Nordic to win in Sweden for example.

Maybe it's time to remove your rose-tinted glasses.

[Ferrer]

Maybe it's time to remove your rose-tinted glasses.

Possibly.

Either that or attend classic rallying events.

[LeonOfTheDead]

What I particularly like of Loeb is when he run at Le Mans. it's quite usual today that driver are very specialized in their specific racing category, and when they switch to another one they are quite average (DTM, anyone?), while he proved to be very talented even with LMP cars. Also, he lost a WRC championship (2003 IIRC) against Solberg just for one point.

about modern rallying, I would say that those of us that weren't there at the time of Group B shouldn't be so hard on this days races. I could say it was better when Bugatti could race his car at Le Mans and then and then drive it to home (and eventually, his son died this way IIRC) but it's something impossible today.

I like today WRC, even if I don't follow it very much because it isn't showed here if not paying probably. it's one of the best form of motorsport we can have. Surely if Loeb is able to almost dominate for five years now, he could have being able to win at least one in the previous era, so that's fine for me

Fans of rallying is what killed the great events.
The enthusiasts knew all the "rules" for spectating and obeyed the posted signs, the notes in the press/programs and espsecially the marshalls.
THen rallying became somethgin that attracted fanatics who had no deeper interest in the sport and it was a way to show bravado, claim heroes and be a sheep.
There was little option but to start closing the stages, stopping the night stages ( because you can't marshall them to PC levels ).
Real rallynig RIP, killed by the morons

and this

[Kitdy]

One thing I'm thinking of Ferrer is that you see the soul of rallying as sorta dying but because of the type of racing it is, watching it televised is probably similar to what it woulda have been in the olden days if it was even televised then. The fact is is that you watch one driver at a time and they attack a challenged course, and this pleases me greatly. It woulda been the same in the past - watching night races woulda been cool I suppose and if it was practical the long stages you mention would be neat but as for the viewing experience I think that it is better now due to superior coverage (this is a guess by me). What I am saying is in the main way you interact with the series, viewing, things are better now than they were, so the soul is sorta dead (to you) but there are many other positives. This Loeb seems to be immensely talented however.

In your guys estimation, is he winning with the best car?

[Wouter Melissen]

In your guys estimation, is he winning with the best car?

When was the last time a Citroen won without Loeb behind the wheel?

[scottie300z]

When was the last time a Citroen won without Loeb behind the wheel?

I don't think there is any question that Loeb is pretty much the premier talant in rallying today, the question is by how much does he stand above everyone else? Is it really b/c as a driver he is that much more dominant or is it also his equipment?

He is a fantastic driver. He hardly crashes or makes harsh mistakes and in offroad driving that says a lot.

[Ferrer]

When was the last time a Citroen won without Loeb behind the wheel?

When was the last time Citroën had a WRC champion capable?

[Kitdy]

When was the last time a Citroen won without Loeb behind the wheel?

I don't know Wouter - I don;t follow rallying. No less, his acquisition is not conclusive proof of Citroen's inferiority.

EDIT: Looking into it, Citroen won the WRC constructor's championship in 2003, 2004 and 2005, each of which Loeb drove for them and he won the drivers championship in 2004 and 2005 and was second in 2003. In 2006 and 2007, Loeb won the driver's title and Ford the constructors - possible evidence that the Citroen was made not as good as Ford. Also, when Loeb won the titles, second was never a Citroen team mate so it was not Citroen dominance.

As you have surmised, and as I would surmise on this limited evidence, Loeb has made the Citroen better than it is or his team mates are bad or his non-Citroen competition is really good but I think from a layman's view that it is most likely that he is simply amazing as others have stated and as I sorta figured based on what I'd read.

[Wouter Melissen]

When was the last time Citroën had a WRC champion capable?

In Loeb's very first full WRC season he had two world champions as team mates. He beat them both.

[Kitdy]

In Loeb's very first full WRC season he had two world champions as team mates. He beat them both.

That is about as damning as it can get.

[Ferrer]

In Loeb's very first full WRC season he had two world champions as team mates. He beat them both.

I meant in terms of competitive Citroëns. I reckon I didn't wrote it properly.

The Xsara T4 was the first properly competitve Citroën.

That is about as damning as it can get.

Both at the end of their careers.

Which is still doesn't undermine the fact he beat them. As I said before I don't have a problem with the cars or rivals.