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Thread: Car of the Year Awards 2008 [PLEASE READ FIRST]

  1. #16
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    I frankly don't understand why people focus on performance only.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I frankly don't understand why people focus on performance only.
    THey often do, but in this case, it is for SCOTY, and performance is critical in this aspect. However, neither of these cars performs best - what is so special about them is they are relative bargains and giant-killers - either can give cars multiple times their cost a run for their money.

    It's not performance only at all - and frankly, the experts agree. We are also an enthusiast group that likes sports cars and I think it is quite evident that a supercar is gonna win this award not just a high-end car because we are skewed to these cars because they are exciting. Look at past UCPCOTY winners for example, the GT3, and the R8.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    THey often do, but in this case, it is for SCOTY, and performance is critical in this aspect. However, neither of these cars performs best - what is so special about them is they are relative bargains and giant-killers - either can give cars multiple times their cost a run for their money.

    It's not performance only at all - and frankly, the experts agree. We are also an enthusiast group that likes sports cars and I think it is quite evident that a supercar is gonna win this award not just a high-end car because we are skewed to these cars because they are exciting. Look at past UCPCOTY winners for example, the GT3, and the R8.
    In my opinion a COTY (a general one as was being discussed) shouldn't be given to a car that only goes fast. That's what the Corvette does. It's not a remarkable car, it just emplys known receipes to achieve a good result, there's nothing special or innovative about it. And as a result it's not worth of general COTY award.

    The Nissan on other hand does have a point. It's a technological showcase. A car that really shouldn't be running with the car it's been piched at. And it does that costing several times less than those cars. Even so, I doubt that many of the people who will vote for it will be able to see past the Nurburgring performance and will vote just because it's a fast car.

    My idea of a COTY is the Toyota iQ. This is a clever small city car, which seats four people in car that's barely longer than a Smart. It has good engines choices and a 6 speed gearbox which is rare at this price point. It also debuts a new type of rear windscreen airbag. That it a car that pushes the outside of the envelope and as a result it's worthy of a COTY award.

    I also thing that partial COTYs (such as performance ones) are useless, but that I guess is due for another disucssion.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I think it's between the two.
    You totally missed what I was getting at.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    In my opinion a COTY (a general one as was being discussed) shouldn't be given to a car that only goes fast. That's what the Corvette does. It's not a remarkable car, it just emplys known receipes to achieve a good result, there's nothing special or innovative about it. And as a result it's not worth of general COTY award.

    The Nissan on other hand does have a point. It's a technological showcase. A car that really shouldn't be running with the car it's been piched at. And it does that costing several times less than those cars. Even so, I doubt that many of the people who will vote for it will be able to see past the Nurburgring performance and will vote just because it's a fast car.

    My idea of a COTY is the Toyota iQ. This is a clever small city car, which seats four people in car that's barely longer than a Smart. It has good engines choices and a 6 speed gearbox which is rare at this price point. It also debuts a new type of rear windscreen airbag. That it a car that pushes the outside of the envelope and as a result it's worthy of a COTY award.

    I also thing that partial COTYs (such as performance ones) are useless, but that I guess is due for another disucssion.
    The Corvette's amazingness comes from as I said it's relative low cost. I give more credence to the people of UCP than to think it will be purely 'ring times. You think that categorical COTYs are useless? I think that it's best to compare like cars in each category and then if anything put those into a category for best of the year. YOu could have entry level COTY, performance COTY, supercar COTY, luxury sedan COTY, etc etc. That'd also allow more winners and be more specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiggs View Post
    You totally missed what I was getting at.
    Ah I got ya now.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    The Corvette's amazingness comes from as I said it's relative low cost. I give more credence to the people of UCP than to think it will be purely 'ring times. You think that categorical COTYs are useless? I think that it's best to compare like cars in each category and then if anything put those into a category for best of the year. YOu could have entry level COTY, performance COTY, supercar COTY, luxury sedan COTY, etc etc. That'd also allow more winners and be more specific.
    But the Corvette costs little money because they use low cost components. Not because it's been cleverly engineered.

    As for categorised COTYs I'm against them because making a car good in one aspect is (relatively) easy. However if a car wins a general COTY it should be good at more then one thing, which makes it a lot harder to design and engineer. In other words a COTY winner should've been a challenge for the people who worked on it. Also picking catgory winners and having them go all along for general award might also mean you left out cars that while weren't the best in anything they were all rounders and a such deserve a chance.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    But the Corvette costs little money because they use low cost components. Not because it's been cleverly engineered.

    As for categorised COTYs I'm against them because making a car good in one aspect is (relatively) easy. However if a car wins a general COTY it should be good at more then one thing, which makes it a lot harder to design and engineer. In other words a COTY winner should've been a challenge for the people who worked on it. Also picking catgory winners and having them go all along for general award might also mean you left out cars that while weren't the best in anything they were all rounders and a such deserve a chance.
    That's fair but I don't think all-rounders would often make it - I think to be a contender typically you gotta be the best at what you do - and this doesn't mean an all-rounder can't win in it's class. In the performance category a GT could win for example. You can also create enough categories so that things are specified enough as to make sure that the cars are all quite similar and the "all-rounder" in each class is essentially non-existent. I also think it is much easier to compare like cars and thus having a SCOTY is easier to deduce than an overall COTY as the variance in all cars eligible for overall COTY cars is huge anhd comparing apples to oranges is harder than comparing apples to apples.

    As for the Corvette, I don't really care how it got it's cheap cost - it got it, and it may be low cost parts, but those low cost parts run with high end parts in cars like the MC12 and Enzo and Koenigsegg and I would bet due to it's construction it is a fair bit more reliable but that is speculation at this point. No less, I think this is still an achievement and I don't even know why good engineering is necessary for car of the year - all that matters is that it is the best. There is beauty and intelligence to be found in simplicity. I bet there is some good engineering in the ZR1 for the car to use such "low cost components" to make it go so quick around the track. In but one example that you will surely loathe, I think it holds a higher skidpad rating than the Enzo. Anyways, even if the Corvette does not have clever engineering as you put it (I think it does - that engine is magic and so light) it has clever planning as it has proven to be a giant killer.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Anyways, even if the Corvette does not have clever engineering as you put it (I think it does - that engine is magic and so light) it has clever planning as it has proven to be a giant killer.
    a giant named GM?
    Fact is that the producer of the Corvette is on its knees, while the producers of the competing cars have been recording very reasonable profits....

    Anyway, an allround COTY is very difficult to achieve. Since I took my driving lessons in one of the first ever European COTY, the Fiat 124, I have followed the selection and there have really been only two oddballs ever, the Mercedes 450SEL and the Porsche 928. Especially the latter choice was not very well received by the general public. All other cars have been reasonably middle of the road.
    May be we have to judge cars along the objectives of the designers, whereby these objectives differ greatly for a Smart or a Koenigsegg.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    That's fair but I don't think all-rounders would often make it - I think to be a contender typically you gotta be the best at what you do - and this doesn't mean an all-rounder can't win in it's class. In the performance category a GT could win for example. You can also create enough categories so that things are specified enough as to make sure that the cars are all quite similar and the "all-rounder" in each class is essentially non-existent. I also think it is much easier to compare like cars and thus having a SCOTY is easier to deduce than an overall COTY as the variance in all cars eligible for overall COTY cars is huge anhd comparing apples to oranges is harder than comparing apples to apples.
    It's true that categorising makes picking candidates and winners much easier. It also allows some deserving cars to pass on the final vote because not only the most expensive and fast cars will be voted.

    However I think that we as car enrhusiasts should be able to get past the initial blitz and spark of a very fast and expensive car and see the car industry as a whole. That has much to do with what Pieter said, the objectives of a Smart and Koenigsegg were different and I'm sure the constraints quite diverged too. Probably the Koenigsegg with all its hightechness was much easier to make than the Smart.

    I also like to point out that I personally think it's not the same liking a car and voting or nominating a car for a COTY award. There are plenty of cars that I like that I wouldn't nominate for a COTY and conversely some cars I don't really like that I would nominate or vote for.

    Of course that doesn't mean that the emotional components should vanish completely from the decision when nominating or voting, but in my opinion they should play a small role, compared to the other reason already mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    As for the Corvette, I don't really care how it got it's cheap cost - it got it, and it may be low cost parts, but those low cost parts run with high end parts in cars like the MC12 and Enzo and Koenigsegg and I would bet due to it's construction it is a fair bit more reliable but that is speculation at this point. No less, I think this is still an achievement and I don't even know why good engineering is necessary for car of the year - all that matters is that it is the best. There is beauty and intelligence to be found in simplicity. I bet there is some good engineering in the ZR1 for the car to use such "low cost components" to make it go so quick around the track. In but one example that you will surely loathe, I think it holds a higher skidpad rating than the Enzo. Anyways, even if the Corvette does not have clever engineering as you put it (I think it does - that engine is magic and so light) it has clever planning as it has proven to be a giant killer.
    I never said the result wasn't good. But it's not really suprising. It has high power and relatively low weight and the suspension has been perfected for the past odd-40 years. And it also has massive sticky tires.

    I comparatively find the Nissan GT-R much more impressive, a fat, not that powerful 4 seater that can run with a focused 2 seater sportscar and several supercars. That's impressive in my books and worth it of nomination at least.

    Again this doesn't mean I particularly like it, or that I don't like the Corvette. As I said before this shouldn't matter that much when choosing COTY candidates (and therefore potential winners).
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    a giant named GM?
    Fact is that the producer of the Corvette is on its knees, while the producers of the competing cars have been recording very reasonable profits....
    Touche, but as you know GM has never been in the business of producing supercars and I use "giant-killer" in that sense (which I think you also knew) - tackling the Italians and Germans in particular who have long been the best supercar makers. And the state of GM does not matter as to how good the car is.

    I looked at the history of the European Car of the Year and they pretty much as I recall always seem to pick a "basic" car - you know, just your average bread and butter except for the 2 you mentioned. Are they biased in favour of the common car?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I looked at the history of the European Car of the Year and they pretty much as I recall always seem to pick a "basic" car - you know, just your average bread and butter except for the 2 you mentioned. Are they biased in favour of the common car?
    The European COTY system is part of the automotive industry (which of course they will vehemently deny) and therefore they look at a car that has the potential to sell well, which given the division of income also in Europe is a "common" car.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    The European COTY system is part of the automotive industry (which of course they will vehemently deny) and therefore they look at a car that has the potential to sell well, which given the division of income also in Europe is a "common" car.
    If you are saying that the European COTY awards are being influenced by bribery of the industry then are they not completely useless and unreliable?
    Last edited by Kitdy; 12-04-2008 at 06:20 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    If you are saying that the European COTY awards are being influenced by bribery of the industry then are they not completely useless and unreliable?
    Auto journos select, auto journos are not independent, certainly not those who are linked with mass (in relative terms) publications.
    Mass publications are depending on the producers for their stuff. Really critical reviews are rare. The efforts of some German journos to put the Dacia Logan in a bad light by subjecting it to the elk test with wrong tyre pressures is a point in case. They would never have done that with a VAG product.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  14. #29
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    I have noticed that in most reviews I read they are rarely savage either - they seem to go easy on practically everything whereas someone like Clarkson will savage things but is unreliable. So I guess both entertainment and "factual" sources are unreliable and tainted.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I have noticed that in most reviews I read they are rarely savage either - they seem to go easy on practically everything whereas someone like Clarkson will savage things but is unreliable. So I guess both entertainment and "factual" sources are unreliable and tainted.
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