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Thread: Best handling Classic car

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    Some of the pre-'80s American cars (Corvettes, '60s Plymouth Barracudas, Olds 4-4-2) handled quite well... especially compared with some of the European cars of the time.
    Which European cars you have in mind ? Alas, I drove 1965 and 1977 Corvettes only, neither any Barracuda nor Olds... I have some experience with the 1959 Mercedes 190SL, 1976 Porsche 911. Even that old 190SL, (weighing almost 1.5 ton), was much better than both those Corvettes, I must say. They could be ideal cars for highway only, I guess. Porsche cars are in the class of their own, their engine at the back could cause a lot of trouble, too, in sharp curve for those who were not accustomed to Porsche behaviour...
    Both those Corvetetes behaved like a mix of a powerful engine and slightly modified beefed-up common chassis, which had a problem with the terrible torque of those engines...
    And I must say, I like U.S. cars of that era.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaromull View Post
    Which European cars you have in mind ?
    European cars in general. Here is a quote from Car Life magazine, Dec., 1968. Test car... 1968 Plymouth Barracuda 340-S:
    "Winding Arizona mountains provided the opportunity to thoroughly check out the handling ability of the 340-S chassis and the Barracuda came through in fine fashion. The Barracuda, while not a sports car, negotiated many curves at speeds that would give some accepted "sports cars" [a 911 perhaps?] considerable strain. The Barracuda is relatively large and heavy [3,470 lbs curb weight], compared with other GT cars, and these characteristics are evident when driving through tight curves. A lack of agility is apparent, but driver confidence remains intact. The driver soon gets the feeling that it would take some incredible occurence to make the Barracuda lose its grip on the pavement."

    Alas, I drove 1965 and 1977 Corvettes only, neither any Barracuda nor Olds... I have some experience with the 1959 Mercedes 190SL, 1976 Porsche 911. Even that old 190SL, (weighing almost 1.5 ton), was much better than both those Corvettes, I must say. They could be ideal cars for highway only, I guess. Porsche cars are in the class of their own, their engine at the back could cause a lot of trouble, too, in sharp curve for those who were not accustomed to Porsche behaviour...
    Both those Corvetetes behaved like a mix of a powerful engine and slightly modified beefed-up common chassis, which had a problem with the terrible torque of those engines...
    And I must say, I like U.S. cars of that era.
    A never heard of a Corvette having "terrible" torque! For me, the more torque, the better; it can be controlled with correct throttle usage.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowdrag View Post
    and the Cooper S (mine was bored to 1293 and a stage 2 Alexander conversion) in FWD.
    lowdrag, what exactly is an alexander conversion? do you have any pics/specs?
    i am currently looking at some sort of crossflow set up for my mini, like an Elder head (as nice as a twincam conversion is..too costly it seems)
    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    The works A110s improved things by putting the radiators up the front and putting MASSIVE rubbers and huge camber on the rears Same as the 911 did through the 80s
    does seem to help,it seems like it works by giving the rear end so much grip that it seems to never let go?
    Quote Originally Posted by nota View Post
    Have to say I also owned a modified IMP GT in the late 1970s and thought it possessed brilliant handling and controllability for typical suburban conditions and speeds

    In my memory it still remains one of the most engaging & enjoyable-to-drive cars I've driven, just so much fun in the city
    your username reminds me; how would a nota fang fare in this topic?
    Andreas Preuninger, Manager of Porsche High Performance Cars: "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    European cars in general. Here is a quote from Car Life magazine, Dec., 1968. Test car... 1968 Plymouth Barracuda 340-S:
    "Winding Arizona mountains provided the opportunity to thoroughly check out the handling ability of the 340-S chassis and the Barracuda came through in fine fashion. The Barracuda, while not a sports car, negotiated many curves at speeds that would give some accepted "sports cars" [a 911 perhaps?] considerable strain. The Barracuda is relatively large and heavy [3,470 lbs curb weight], compared with other GT cars, and these characteristics are evident when driving through tight curves. A lack of agility is apparent, but driver confidence remains intact. The driver soon gets the feeling that it would take some incredible occurence to make the Barracuda lose its grip on the pavement."
    Fleet; Underlined is the difference between your 'good handling car' and a Porsche of the era. The incredible occurrence would also cause the Porsche to spin, which was its way responding to braking traction. Still would have been a lot more fun up a mountain road too that point too, due to the nimbleness.
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  5. #65
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    Fleet 500: "Terrible" could mean "extreme", even according to my Oxford Dictionary of Current English... Sorry, this language I learnt as a student many years ago.. Great torque is OK if the chassis is designed to such a great torque, of course, and this was not the case in Corvettes I drove.
    Anyway, it is hardly possible to talk generally about handling characteristics of Europian or U.S. cars. Do you think "good handling quality" to be equal to "forgiving" ? Porsche 911 is NOT a forgiving car at all, but still it handles very well at very high speed if properly driven. I felt quite sure driving 1976 Porsche at speeds varying between 90 and 130 kph along narrow and curved track. I did not feel safe at any of those Corvettes driving the same track. They behave like a family car with too soft springs...
    Well, my and your piece of cake look to be quite different.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    if you want to treat yourself to the "Fleet experience", be my guest.

    but let's prepare ourselves for contemporary US magazines etc, etc, etc.....
    Some of the pre-'80s American cars handled quite well... especially compared with some of the European cars of the time.
    Which European cars do you have in mind?

    European cars in general.

    Here is a quote from Car Life magazine, Dec., 1968. Test car... 1968 Plymouth Barracuda 340-S:
    "Winding Arizona mountains provided the opportunity to thoroughly check out the handling ability of the 340-S chassis and the Barracuda came through in fine fashion. The Barracuda, while not a sports car, negotiated many curves at speeds that would give some accepted "sports cars" [a 911 perhaps?] considerable strain. The Barracuda is relatively large and heavy [3,470 lbs curb weight], compared with other GT cars, and these characteristics are evident when driving through tight curves. A lack of agility is apparent, but driver confidence remains intact. The driver soon gets the feeling that it would take some incredible occurence to make the Barracuda lose its grip on the pavement."
    Notice fleet's above magazine "quote of proof" for European cars lacks any mention of any European car whatsoever?

    Indeed all fleet offers for "proof" is his own insert "[a 911 perhaps?]" which is nothing more than non factual, non quoted self-serving BS

    Looks like fun .. let me try the "perhaps?" handling game!

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  7. #67
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    Haven't read the thread, but can I suggest the Honda S800, S600 or S500? Heard they're okay.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
    does seem to help,it seems like it works by giving the rear end so much grip that it seems to never let go?
    But sadly makes it even worse when it does "release"
    However, no doubt you are going faster ... if you've got the balls
    and unfortinately the wider tyres to prevent dornering breakaway also means highe traction in braking and acceleration. Hence lots of broken suspension arms, driveshafts and gearboxes
    Still sex on wheels tho'

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by nota View Post
    Which European cars do you have in mind?
    In general, not picking out a particular car or model.

    Notice fleet's above magazine "quote of proof" for European cars lacks any mention of any European car whatsoever?
    Okay, if you want an example of a certain model...
    "Wheels and tires are now as wide as what you would have found on pure racing machines a few years ago, and truly sophisticated handling packages (many with rear anti-sway bars) are standard equipment. The point was forcefully pounded home at the GM proving grounds where we discovered that a Buick GS455 (of all things), loaded down to 4,300 lbs with every conceivable comfort option, would still drive circles around an Opel GT, a 'sports car,' on the handling course."
    - Car & Driver, Feb., 1970

    Indeed all fleet offers for "proof" is his own insert "[a 911 perhaps?]" which is nothing more than non factual, non quoted self-serving BS

    Looks like fun .. let me try the "perhaps?" handling game!

    [Renault Floride]
    [Karmann Ghia]
    [early Spitfire]
    [Nader Corvair]
    [Ford Thunderbird]
    [Studebaker Hawk]
    [Crosley King Midget]
    Would you agree that some American cars handled well? Well enough to be compared to certain European cars? Or is that an impossibility?

    Also, the Ford Thunderbird is a poor example. That car, in general, were not known as good handling cars. '50s and '60s T-Bird (forget the '70s T-Birds, they had even worse handling than the older ones!).
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyco View Post
    Fleet; Underlined is the difference between your 'good handling car' and a Porsche of the era. The incredible occurrence would also cause the Porsche to spin, which was its way responding to braking traction. Still would have been a lot more fun up a mountain road too that point too, due to the nimbleness.
    Yes, lack of agility due to it's relatively large size and weight, not due to suspension problems or weaknesses. The fact that the test Barracuda could stay with accepted "sports cars" on a mountain road does say a lot, though.

    A good handling car can be on the large size, that Barracuda, for instance.
    '76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
    Okay, if you want an example of a certain model...
    we discovered that a Buick GS455 would still drive circles around an Opel GT, a 'sports car,' on the handling course."
    - Car & Driver, Feb., 1970
    LOL, sunk like a stone!

    From "911 perhaps" now down to a cheap ill-handling Opel, which shares its front spring design (traverse leaf!) with the Model T Ford

    Is that the best you can do? Really .. the Opel GT? Coincidentally, I was going to include Opel GT among my list of [worst handlers]

    A suspension taken from abysmal 'bottom feeder' GM Opel Kadett econocars. Here's a pic of traverse leaf Kadett in action on Top Gear

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Kadett A and B were technically simple cars whose task was to compete with the market leader, the Volkswagen Beetle. This lack of sophistication caused the USA car magazine Car and Driver to publish a highly critical test of the Kadett in 1968 featuring photos of the car in a junkyard. Reportedly, GM withdrew any ads from that magazine for several months as a consequence.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    But sadly makes it even worse when it does "release"
    However, no doubt you are going faster ... if you've got the balls
    and unfortinately the wider tyres to prevent dornering breakaway also means highe traction in braking and acceleration. Hence lots of broken suspension arms, driveshafts and gearboxes
    Still sex on wheels tho'
    yeah, i have noticed in mine as an example that the narrower 225mm tires/wheel are much more forgiving albeit give slower lap times
    the 9" wheel/255 tires give better lap times but really do snap, especially for a novice like me
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nota View Post
    LOL, sunk like a stone!

    From "911 perhaps" now down to a cheap ill-handling Opel, which shares its front spring design (traverse leaf!) with the Model T Ford

    Is that the best you can do? Really .. the Opel GT? Coincidentally, I was going to include Opel GT among my list of [worst handlers]

    A suspension taken from abysmal 'bottom feeder' GM Opel Kadett econocars. Here's a pic of traverse leaf Kadett in action on Top Gear
    I see that car in Topgear have a South African registration.......
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  14. #74
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    Stop this arguing.

    Fleet is an American car apologetic and will go to great lengths to prove his point.

    Fleet, sometimes I like when you go to bat for American cars, but in this case, I don't think that you are right at all. You take the best European handlers and mix in the best American and it'd be no contest for the Europeans - the Americans may have them in a straight line as they were designed to do, but not in circles. Some American cars may be better than some European cars - fine - but in general it is reasonable to say that European cars handled better.

    Can you accept this at least?

  15. #75
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    The discussion goes somewhere...

    Would you agree that some American cars handled well? Well enough to be compared to certain European cars? Or is that an impossibility?

    Also, the Ford Thunderbird is a poor example. That car, in general, were not known as good handling cars. '50s and '60s T-Bird (forget the '70s T-Birds, they had even worse handling than the older ones!).[/QUOTE]

    It is not a good idea to compare such different kinds of cars like we do... Of course I can admit that many U.S.cars have good handling qualities, that many of them are comparable to, or much better than, Europian cars.
    Anyway, what do you think about handling qualities of the third and the fourth generation Corvettes ?
    Talking about Porsche cars, I would prefer 944. It was the best car I had ever an opportunity to drive, with the sole problem - revs limiting device which could cause a lot of trouble.

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