Jeremy Clarkson reviews the Honda Insight

[Matra et Alpine]

a bit rough on the Tesla.
It's BASED on the Lotus constructino methods and core re-usable chassis.
BUT it *IS* tuned to account for the different weight and momentum issues and was assisted in it by Lotus engineers. Discussed this very point with the Sales Director at Le Mans last year He was very open ... no it does NOT handle "Like a Lotus" but does handle well.

and re "add up", marketing folks will NEVER add the caveats and limitations.
SO yes it can go for a very long distance ( relatively speaking ) AND it CAN do a very fast 0-60. BUT NOBODY claims it can ahieve both. Just as with EVERY otehr car in the market. Redlining the RX-8 on roads I'll get about 15mpg, taking it "average" I can get as much as 22mpg .. but on track it's in the 8mpg range. It's in the last figure I expect if I'm seeking otu the performance figures and not the endurance THIS is why all the figures are required to be measured to a standard cycle

So their claims are not "outrageous" however they are a little "deceptive" given that most readers will think petrol engine rules and not electric motor/battery !

[culver]

The biggest problem with most Hybrid is that they seem good on emission figure from an end-of-pipe point of view. They achieve that by mainly being smaller and lighter with more focus on operation efficiency(aero, rolling resistence, engine tuning).(You get I think 1 or 2 MPG between something like a Lexus LS460 vs LS600h, so hybrid in itself is not exactly the game changer). But when you do a whole life-cycle analysis on carbon foot print of the Hybrid, they don't make sense at all. JC's most valid point of the article was exactly that. A local build Land Rover is probably going to be better in that respect over an imported Hybrid. All Prius in the world uses battery made from Nickel in Ontario, that got ship to China to produce battery cell, then ship to Japan to produce the pack and install into the vehicle, then ship back to US for consumer. How long you have to drive the Prius or Land Rover to make that carbon emmision to be equal? Most laymen tree hugger only see the end of pipe issue. Not the big picture. The same problem will have to be solve for a hydrogen based system to produce hydrogen with minimum carbon footprint for it to be called a solution to our problem....

BTW, Tesla=Lotus Elise with battery - suspension tuning. The people at Tesla throw the battery pack in with a new front facia and call it a day on that car....no consideration was paid at all to how the dynamic of the car changed with the heavy arse battery and motor....I still think the people over there still have yet to get the full picture of making a car....

I think there is a lot of truth to what you say about the hybrids. One of the smart things Toyota did was not producing a standard non-hybrid Prius. A non-hybrid Prius would still get great mileage while undercutting the cost of the hybrid car (assuming no subsides) by a large margin.

Note the difference in mileage between the hybrid Civic and non-hybrid Civic. The total mileage difference wasn't that great. Admittedly, the Civic's hybrid system was not as sophisticated as that used by Toyota and Ford so one should expect a bigger gap with a better system. Anyway, the hybrid Civic not only cost more but forced the buyer to opt for high profit trim items thus allowing Honda to likely hide some of the hybrid cost in the profit of things like a nav system.

From the point of view of the market I think it's a pity we don't have non-hybrid versions of these efficient cars. From the view of the companies of course I understand non-hybrids would hurt the Prius smug factor.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I think saying producing hybrids costs more in terms of pollution is silly without some actual figures.
Like, producing petrol itself pollutes. but how much?
A "local built Land Rover" isn't really made of parts coming only from the local area, but I can't say for sure what really pollute less.
Even saying Prius' parts travel more before of being installed, perhaps I could say Toyota is using more efficient way of transferring parts than Land Rover.

what's the point of such comparisons without figures?

[RacingManiac]

Note the difference in mileage between the hybrid Civic and non-hybrid Civic. The total mileage difference wasn't that great. Admittedly, the Civic's hybrid system was not as sophisticated as that used by Toyota and Ford so one should expect a bigger gap with a better system. Anyway, the hybrid Civic not only cost more but forced the buyer to opt for high profit trim items thus allowing Honda to likely hide some of the hybrid cost in the profit of things like a nav system.

That is exactly it. Cost to make a hybrid is still high, and thats why most hybrid came loaded with lots of "upgrades", because they need high-margin options in them to make it worthwhile for the OEMs to recover the cost. Original Insight was probably the only "no frills" hybrid car, and it was also significantly less sophisticated than even the original Prius, which means cost to Honda wasn't that high.

If Toyota have a non-hybrid Prius, it'll probably get similar mileage on highway with city mileage taking a hit(where the Hybrid does the most work). But people wouldn't buy it because it is simply a cheap small car. And American don't buy cheap small car. But make it a hybrid, and it becomes, oddly, a status symbol.....and thus its chic to own one.....

One thing I have to add though. I am a fan of Prius, purely as an engineering product. It is brilliant, in that the advancements made between generations are basically the holy grail of engineering, because they improve performance AND efficiency and made it in a much more practical package. But the car as a breed and as a model for the future of "green" motoring, it is just a gimmick for the ignorant public....

[cargirl1990]

why argue about the Honda and Toyota when they BOTH LOOK THE SAME.
geez...

[f6fhellcat13]

why argue about the Honda and Toyota when they BOTH LOOK THE SAME.
geez...

Because they are different cars.
You've been warned about this already.

[RacingManiac]

why argue about the Honda and Toyota when they BOTH LOOK THE SAME.
geez...

Why bother to understand cars when all you see is the outside of the car....

geez....

[Ferrer]

From the point of view of the market I think it's a pity we don't have non-hybrid versions of these efficient cars. From the view of the companies of course I understand non-hybrids would hurt the Prius smug factor.

We already have those. They are the BlueMotion, Ecomotive, Econetic, BlueEfficiency versions or the whole BMW range.

[RacingManiac]

We already have those. They are the BlueMotion, Ecomotive, Econetic, BlueEfficiency versions or the whole BMW range.

He is saying about Prius or Insight...the "purpose built" hybrid. As I was mentioning that they should be technically "better" car than their run-of-the-mill counterpart(as in the Corolla and Civic) of the same class. Since they are designed to be as efficient of a platform as they could get to maximize the advantage of the hybrid powertrain. But the cars themselves are only available as hybrid rather than having "regular" version of them.

[Matra et Alpine]

I think saying producing hybrids costs more in terms of pollution is silly without some actual figures.

Look for the "dust to dust" report by CNW in the US a few years back for figures.
Woudl post it here, but pdf is 3Mb and exceeds limits

[Ferrer]

He is saying about Prius or Insight...the "purpose built" hybrid. As I was mentioning that they should be technically "better" car than their run-of-the-mill counterpart(as in the Corolla and Civic) of the same class. Since they are designed to be as efficient of a platform as they could get to maximize the advantage of the hybrid powertrain. But the cars themselves are only available as hybrid rather than having "regular" version of them.

Well yes, but the newest E-Class Merc has some brilliant aerodynamics and the Blue Efficiency version of the 4 cylinder version has all the enhancements of the hybrids, low rolling resistance tires, longer gear ratios and so on.

That means you have a 204bhp saloon that does 5,3l/100km (44mpg US). Why would you want a car that looks like a Prius is beyond me.

[LeonOfTheDead]

That means you have a 204bhp saloon that does 5,3l/100km (44mpg US). Why would you want a car that looks like a Prius is beyond me.

Because you are not into cars, don't know about cars, and buy what you think is the right choice.
as if my notebook was the better deal I could have, despite me being into computers some time ago. And for 350€ it was probably a good deal despite being quite shitty and slow. I didn't need something better too.

[RacingManiac]

People who buys Prius is not the same who buys E-class....as mentioned elsewhere it is almost a Halo car of the Toyota brand. It is almost meant to be the technology demostrator of hybrid powertrain, positioned in the bread and butter segment of the market. It is meant to be like a Camry or Corolla in its role, except in this case the car has been designed to be as efficient as it can be compare to the other 2. Now, if they design the Camry or Corolla as they do with Prius, will it be just as good(in terms of maximizing efficiency), minus the hybrid powertrain benefit at low speed?

[Ferrer]

People who buys Prius is not the same who buys E-class....as mentioned elsewhere it is almost a Halo car of the Toyota brand. It is almost meant to be the technology demostrator of hybrid powertrain, positioned in the bread and butter segment of the market. It is meant to be like a Camry or Corolla in its role, except in this case the car has been designed to be as efficient as it can be compare to the other 2. Now, if they design the Camry or Corolla as they do with Prius, will it be just as good(in terms of maximizing efficiency), minus the hybrid powertrain benefit at low speed?

Replace Merc E-Class with Ibiza Ecomotive and there you go.

[Kitdy]

what's the point of such comparisons without figures?

I want to know if anyone has actually done a carbon-footprint/ecological analysis of say an efficient diesel car, and a car like the Insight or Prius - and I'd like to see more than one study done for this from multiple sources.

If we don't know exactly how much CO2 etc is emitted during the whole life cycle of the car, we are making sheer guesses and this is not very helpful. Mr. Clarkson of course comes across as though he knows all and displays thin in a very simplistic and easy to understand manner but that doesn't mean he's correct. He very well may be right (especially in this instance) but I think one aspect that is disturbing about this man's situation is how much faith the general public have in him (see his many syndicated newspaper columns, JC for PM etc.)

I'm with Ferrer - May is definitely the best presenter on Top Gear and much more palatable.