Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 45 of 45

Thread: Porsche 997.2 turbo- Argue here!!!

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Barcelona
    Posts
    33,489
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I'd say the Corvette is also recognized as a leader in performance and everyday driveablity. It may as well be conisdered the car for this particular set of circumstances.
    But 911 shines everywhere, I mean it's recognised as the benchmark all over the world. The Corvette works in the America, but not so sure everywhere else.

    I like the 911, and I think all car enthusiasts should own one at some point. Quite apart from the packaging advantages the rear engined layout also has traction issues. I like the fact that Porsche has been refining the layout for about 60 years and they haven't changed their minds.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Ramona, CA
    Posts
    72
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    But 911 shines everywhere, I mean it's recognised as the benchmark all over the world. The Corvette works in the America, but not so sure everywhere else.
    Corvettes do very well in GT1, and might do better in Europe except for those draconian tariffs and VATs. My friend in Norway managed to import a 'used' Corvette to Norway for 'only' $137,000; 59,000 to the US dealer, the remainder in EU taxes and tariffs, etc.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by wstander View Post
    Corvettes do very well in GT1, and might do better in Europe except for those draconian tariffs and VATs. My friend in Norway managed to import a 'used' Corvette to Norway for 'only' $137,000; 59,000 to the US dealer, the remainder in EU taxes and tariffs, etc.
    Wow, here you could get a ZR1 and a normal family car for that price.
    Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain one as an adult.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,508
    Quote Originally Posted by wstander View Post
    Corvettes do very well in GT1, and might do better in Europe except for those draconian tariffs and VATs. My friend in Norway managed to import a 'used' Corvette to Norway for 'only' $137,000; 59,000 to the US dealer, the remainder in EU taxes and tariffs, etc.
    How does that compare to the price of say a Boxster? In the US the Corvette is about the same price as a Boxster (unless you get the Porsche special edition $8000 paint and seat covers). Does a Boxster cost the equivalent of $130k or are they closer to say $60k. Do these tariffs apply to all cars or just cars imported into the EU? Beyond assuming that any car cost more in Europe due to higher taxes (assume identical models) I don't really know how much the markup normally is nor where the various markups come from.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    277
    Quote Originally Posted by culver View Post
    How does that compare to the price of say a Boxster? In the US the Corvette is about the same price as a Boxster (unless you get the Porsche special edition $8000 paint and seat covers). Does a Boxster cost the equivalent of $130k or are they closer to say $60k. Do these tariffs apply to all cars or just cars imported into the EU? Beyond assuming that any car cost more in Europe due to higher taxes (assume identical models) I don't really know how much the markup normally is nor where the various markups come from.
    Off the top of my head, I would think that since the Boxster is a European car and doesn't need to be imported overseas, it wouldn't be subject to the same high tariffs, etc. when sold in Europe.
    Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain one as an adult.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    brisbane - sub-tropical land of mangoes
    Posts
    16,251
    it's a german car..
    Andreas Preuninger, Manager of Porsche High Performance Cars: "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging."

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Barcelona
    Posts
    33,489
    Quote Originally Posted by wstander View Post
    Corvettes do very well in GT1, and might do better in Europe except for those draconian tariffs and VATs. My friend in Norway managed to import a 'used' Corvette to Norway for 'only' $137,000; 59,000 to the US dealer, the remainder in EU taxes and tariffs, etc.
    I still think that despite the undeniable Corvette abilities, no one in Europe would be interested in them even if they were cheaper.

    In my opinion the 911 is the ultimate allrounder.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I still think that despite the undeniable Corvette abilities, no one in Europe would be interested in them even if they were cheaper.

    In my opinion the 911 is the ultimate allrounder.
    I suspect if the Corvette's price with respect to the competition were similar to where it is in the US, it would sell better in Europe. In the US a non-Z06, non-ZR1 Corvette is priced with an entry level Porsche and about $10k more than a Nissan 370Z. I'm under the impression, though I might be wrong, that in Europe a Corvette's price is similar to a 911. In the US that would make a Corvette an $80k car vs a $50k car. At $80k Corvette's US sales would plummet.

    So what I am wondering is doesn't the Corvette's price point in Europe rise with respect to it's price point in the US. Sure it cost more in Europe but so does a Miata. However, if it's price is significantly higher with respect the competition then yes, it would really limit sales in Europe.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    1,991
    Quote Originally Posted by culver View Post
    I suspect if the Corvette's price with respect to the competition were similar to where it is in the US, it would sell better in Europe. In the US a non-Z06, non-ZR1 Corvette is priced with an entry level Porsche and about $10k more than a Nissan 370Z. I'm under the impression, though I might be wrong, that in Europe a Corvette's price is similar to a 911. In the US that would make a Corvette an $80k car vs a $50k car. At $80k Corvette's US sales would plummet.

    So what I am wondering is doesn't the Corvette's price point in Europe rise with respect to it's price point in the US. Sure it cost more in Europe but so does a Miata. However, if it's price is significantly higher with respect the competition then yes, it would really limit sales in Europe.
    A base Corvette C6 is €70990 over here ($101771 at current exchange rate). A 911 Carrera 2 is €87362 ($125242).

    A Z06 is €25k more than a C6 and a ZR1 is double the price (€138990). That's 911 Turbo money (€143748).

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Reality
    Posts
    3,151
    Quote Originally Posted by Lagonda View Post
    A base Corvette C6 is €70990 over here ($101771 at current exchange rate). A 911 Carrera 2 is €87362 ($125242).

    A Z06 is €25k more than a C6 and a ZR1 is double the price (€138990). That's 911 Turbo money (€143748).
    Therefore I'd be surprised to see a flagship vette on euro soil. Those guys value their tight fit and finish. As great of performers as the Z06 and/or ZR1 are, they don't match the quality feel that europeans expect in their cars.

    The only reason I can see anyone there buying one would be to stand out from the masses of Porsches, Bmw, and Mercs that own the streets there.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Barcelona
    Posts
    33,489
    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoRob View Post
    Therefore I'd be surprised to see a flagship vette on euro soil. Those guys value their tight fit and finish. As great of performers as the Z06 and/or ZR1 are, they don't match the quality feel that europeans expect in their cars.

    The only reason I can see anyone there buying one would be to stand out from the masses of Porsches, Bmw, and Mercs that own the streets there.
    And it's not only that but image and brand recognition as well.

    It's the same reason why the CTS, even if it's a good car, doesn't sell at all in Europe.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,508
    I suspect the brand recognition and dealer availability are a reasonable part of the issue. As for the interior, the C6 suffers from a dull interior. In general there is little to complain about with regards to fit, finish or materials. When you look at those things as individuals you will find the Cayman interior is no better than the Corvette. The seams are just as tight, the material on the dash is just as good, the window switches move just as nicely. However, the Cayman takes all those elements and packages them in an interesting way. GM took those elements and made a plain looking interior. The net result of it is GM gets bad mouthed for poor fit and finish when in reality the problem was poor styling. That doesn't excuse GM, in fact in a sense it makes it worse because they paid for all the same stuff but delivered less for the same cost. Still, it's not like the Corvette manufacturing guys aren't doing as good an assembly job as the Porsche people.

    Lagonda,
    How much does a Cayman cost? Also, it looks like the price difference between the 911 and Corvette is a bit smaller in Europe. I think in the US you are generally talking a $30k difference. More importantly, the percent difference is larger as in the US a 911 is around 50-60% more than a Corvette. Based on your numbers the difference seems more like 30%. Certainly as the price goes up people will expect more and the "bargain" aspect becomes less important.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,508
    Quote Originally Posted by DesmoRob View Post
    Therefore I'd be surprised to see a flagship vette on euro soil. Those guys value their tight fit and finish. As great of performers as the Z06 and/or ZR1 are, they don't match the quality feel that europeans expect in their cars.

    The only reason I can see anyone there buying one would be to stand out from the masses of Porsches, Bmw, and Mercs that own the streets there.
    I generally agree though the Corvette isn't really a BMW or Mercedes competitor. BMW and Mercedes really don't have a same segment competitor. Porsche certainly does but BMW and Mercedes have either heavier, larger GTs that cost a lot more or they have less powerful similar priced cars. I think the same generally applied when comparing BMW and MB vs Porsche though the price and performance gap is smaller.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    412
    Quote Originally Posted by culver View Post
    As for the interior, the C6 suffers from a dull interior. In general there is little to complain about with regards to fit, finish or materials. When you look at those things as individuals you will find the Cayman interior is no better than the Corvette. The seams are just as tight, the material on the dash is just as good, the window switches move just as nicely.
    I agree the dash and door panel areas are pretty decent on the C6. I've found the stitching on the seats of the Cayman to be nicer than the stitching on the Corvette seats, however. And aesthetically, the seats in the Porsche have a higher degree of precision in the way they look: tight with even stitching whereas the Corvette seats look "puffy" and the stitching more erratic. The very limited color choices in Corvette interiors is also a downside, and some of the 2-tone color combos are pretty whack.



    Here's a custom Vette interior which shows how much better the car can look with better materials and colors, even though the basic design is still the same:

    I think this particular interior cost the owner about $20K, but that likely includes labor to remove the old components for refinishing. If GM did this the first time from the factory even as an option, I doubt it would be more than $10K, considering the volumes they deal with.

    On top of that, the Corvette seats get blasted in reviews on both sides of the Atlantic for their poor support. They're flimsy. This is somewhat OK in the C6 considering the price point, but when you have a ZR1 that's much more expensive, can accelerate and brake and turn harder with the help of very grippy rubber, then it's not acceptable. GM will also need to work on the mechanical feel of the control interfaces too: the steering and transmission, while improved from earlier C6's, is still lacking compared to European and Japanese alternatives.
    From group reviews in Evo and AutoExpress, it also appears they need to do some work on the way the ZR1 handles European roads too. The Z06 was premiered with some fanfare at Spa and Paul Ricard, and we know the ZR1 was tested on the Nurburgring. Yet it seems there was little if any suspension tuning done on surrounding real-world roads.

    Ultimately, though, there might not really be any way around the Corvette's image. This is a conundrum of their own making: Corvette has the speed, and even if it has the refinement, it has none of the cachet. It will still be associated with Chevy. Cadillac is a prestige nameplate (sullied in Euro markets by the likes of the BLS), but some of the weaknesses found in the Chevy are still present in even the $100K XLR-V, which is not nearly as well-sorted as similar cars from MB/BMW/Porsche.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Barcelona
    Posts
    33,489
    All the problems mentioned aside US cars aren't successful in the US because they are not adapted to European requirements. Even if they have come a long way, they are still too big and heavy with no diesels available, or dated unrefined units. They are cheap yes, but they are expensive to run.

    So the problem really is two-fold here. We don't usually consider them and when we do they don't fit our requirements.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Really useful performance listings...
    By Egg Nog in forum Technical forums
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 04-18-2021, 05:13 PM
  2. Porsche 944
    By drakkie in forum Classic cars
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-15-2010, 07:55 PM
  3. Car and Driver: 997 Turbo Preview
    By F1_Master in forum General Automotive
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-09-2006, 10:15 AM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-30-2005, 04:13 PM
  5. Hamann Porsche Turbo (996)
    By Matt in forum Matt's Hi-Res Hide-Out
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-15-2004, 08:28 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •