2009 Wheels Magazine Car of the Year (Australia) - what car will win?

[henk4]

Well 5.000€ is not a small amount of money. I'd say that pricing is more or less in line with competition.

may be in absolute terms, but the added value of that 5000 compared to what you pay for a Golf is considerably higher than 5000.

[Ferrer]

may be in absolute terms, but the added value of that 5000 compared to what you pay for a Golf is considerably higher than 5000.

Well, but that may be a problem of the Golf not the Superb.

[henk4]

Well, but that may be a problem of the Golf not the Superb.

which explains my failing to understand the Aussie choice.....

[Ferrer]

Agreed, except for the interesting 1.2 and 1.4 TSi engines the Golf isn't anything that you can't get cheaper in the form of the Seat Leon or the Skoda Octavia.

I guess the most deserving winner was probably the Nissan GT-R.

[henk4]

Agreed, except for the interesting 1.2 and 1.4 TSi engines the Golf isn't anything that you can't get cheaper in the form of the Seat Leon or the Skoda Octavia.

I guess the most deserving winner was probably the Nissan GT-R.

for the last remark: Personally I can agree, but it would have created the same type of discussions that were triggered by the ECOTY choice of the Porsche 928, ages ago.

[Ferrer]

for the last remark: Personally I can agree, but it would have created the same type of discussions that were triggered by the ECOTY choice of the Porsche 928, ages ago.

Well it's an interesting problem isn't it? If there's no problem with the resources available it's probable that the resulting car, or product actually, will be better than another in which a compromise has had to be met because the firm needs a certain return on investment. The Porsche 928 is another example, as higher priced cars allow for more expensive developments to take place since you'll be able to price those higher and therefore get more money for your product.

There could be a crucial difference though. I don't think Porsche lost any money with the 928, but are we sure Nissan is losing money with every standard GT-R sold? It's a bargain, but how much of this bargain is due to effective and efficient engineering and how much due to the car simply being priced under what it actually costs to make? Like the Veyron, the Nissan is a very remarkable engineering achievement but if we factor in the costs while still amazing it's not that outstanding. I mean, at 5 million a piece I guess we could also built a car that does 400km/h comfortably and easily.

[nota]

Also price-wise I suppose..the base model Superb over here is less than 5000 Euro more expensive than a Golf with the same engine...

Hereabouts the only models of Superb & Golf which have similar-capacity engines & gears are these diesels, at MRRP:

Golf Comfortline TDi 2.0 TD (103 kW) is $35,690
Superb Ambition TDi 2.0 TD (125 kW) is $45,990

(Octavia TDi 2.0 TD (103kW) is $36,990)

[henk4]

Well it's an interesting problem isn't it? If there's no problem with the resources available it's probable that the resulting car, or product actually, will be better than another in which a compromise has had to be met because the firm needs a certain return on investment. The Porsche 928 is another example, as higher priced cars allow for more expensive developments to take place since you'll be able to price those higher and therefore get more money for your product.

There could be a crucial difference though. I don't think Porsche lost any money with the 928, but are we sure Nissan is losing money with every standard GT-R sold? It's a bargain, but how much of this bargain is due to effective and efficient engineering and how much due to the car simply being priced under what it actually costs to make? Like the Veyron, the Nissan is a very remarkable engineering achievement but if we factor in the costs while still amazing it's not that outstanding. I mean, at 5 million a piece I guess we could also built a car that does 400km/h comfortably and easily.

The discussion on the price was not the issue with the 928, it was about its every day relevance. For the price discussions we had the choice of the Mercedes 450SEL, a number of years earlier. (And I am not sure if the 928 was actually a money maker for Porsche).
The speculation of the GTR costs seems to continue, but also nobody seems to know the exact figures....

[henk4]

Hereabouts the only models of Superb & Golf which have similar-capacity engines & gears are these diesels, at MRRP:

Golf Comfortline TDi 2.0 TD (103 kW) is $35,690
Superb Ambition TDi 2.0 TD (125 kW) is $45,990

(Octavia TDi 2.0 TD (103kW) is $36,990)

so at 1 AUD equalling about 1.56 Euro, the price difference is roughly 6600 Euro.

For your info: A 125 KW Ambition TDi would cost here 39800=61000 AUD (we do have the comfort version with 103 KW for E 35650=55614 AUD)
The Golf 2.0 TDi comfort only comes with the DSG here for 31590=49280 AUD (DSG additional price is 2300 Euro for other models, so 3600 AUD).

N.B.: Prices for diesel cars in Holland are affected by a specific tax regime, that adds about 1000-1500 Euro to the retail price.

[Ferrer]

The discussion on the price was not the issue with the 928, it was about its every day relevance. For the price discussions we had the choice of the Mercedes 450SEL, a number of years earlier. (And I am not sure if the 928 was actually a money maker for Porsche).
The speculation of the GTR costs seems to continue, but also nobody seems to know the exact figures....

Well maybe not at the launch, but certainly the technologies engineered for the GT-R will eventually trigger down to lesser models. These days you can have a dual clutch gearbox in an Ibiza for instance. Maybe the car itself isn't very relevant to the general public, but as a goal posts mover it helps the car to evolve. It's a bit like the Honda FCX Clarity, not very relevant to the general public, the car, but the technology is very important and as a result the car is very important too.

[motorsportnerd]

In the Australian context the Superb, the base model Ambition TSi with the 1.8 turbo four is $42,990, the Ambition TDi with the 2.0 turbo diesel is $45,990 and the top of the range 3.6 V6 AWD is $56,990.
So, a Golf with the same engine, the 118TSi Comfortline is $30,490 - which is $11,500 cheaper than the base Superb.
The competition for the base model Superb would include the Ford Mondeo XR5T with the 2.5 turbo engine (Titanium spec in Europe) which retails at $44,990; the Mazda6 2.5 Luxury Sports at $45,440, the Honda Accord Euro Luxury at $45,990, the Nissan Maxima 250GT-L at $33,990 and the Volkswagen Passat 147TSi with the 2-litre Turbo at $44,990.
The TDI would go against the Mondeo Titanium TDCi which retails at $45,990, the Mazda6 Diesel Sports Hatch ($44,840), and the Passat 103TDi ($42,990).
The V6 AWD version competes with the Aussie built Ford Falcon G6E Turbo ($56,490), Holden Calais V ($56,790 for the six or $61,990 for the V8) and Toyota Aurion Presara ($49,990) as well as a huge number of Japanese and European built cars in the $50-60K range including Audi A4, BMW 320i/323i, Honda Accord V6, Mercedes-Benz C200K, Nissan Maxima 350 Ti, Subaru Legacy GT and 3.6R, and Volkwagen Passat V6.
There is so much choice in the segments that the Superb competes in that it might almost get lost in this market. To many Australians, Skoda is still associated with the quirky and cheap rear-engined cars from the Soviet era.
With decent marketing the Superb could sell very well. Even with relatively minimal marketing, the Superb is selling much better than expected.
I personally recommended a mate of mine in New Zealand take a look at one. He was impressed, but can't bring himself to buy a Volkswagen with a Skoda badge (he hates Volkswagens).
I understand why many Australians would buy the BMW 323i over the Superb V6, but then they may be missing out on one of the most under-rated cars on the market.
If I was spending my own money amongst the V6 4WD's competitors and had to buy new and privately I'd probably look towards the Merc or BMW myself. If I could buy second hand or was given a company car I'd take the Falcon G6E Turbo (they depreciate like crazy). I'd consider the Superb, but would have to be convinced they didn't depreciate like crazy first.

In Europe the scenario is a bit different. Some of the cars I've mentioned like the Mazda6 or Accord don't have the same quality image in Europe that they have in Australia. Others like the Ford Falcon and the Holden Calais are not sold in Europe. And the Mercs and BMWs would be in a different segment altogether. It does show what the Superb is up against here - there is a huge amount of talent in the $40-60K medium-premium and large executive classes, and most of the marques have strong and established reputations here that Skoda can't match.
Still, I hope Skoda can continue to score goals in the Australian market and become firmly established here. The Superb is indeed a superb effort. Just hope it doesn't disappear under the onslaught from its more established competitors.

[henk4]

interesting market...
are you sure the Maxima 250 is only 33000? (we don't get the Maxima here b.t.w.)

[nota]

The Golf 2.0 TDi comfort only comes with the DSG here

Btw all those VAG vehicle prices in my list are for 6-speed 'sequential' transmissions (DSG?)

Fyi here's some local car prices for a value comparison; the Falcon G6 (mid-lux) 4.0L auto sedan with leather, 18" mags, Bluetooth , I-pod integration and factory LPG @ $36,490 - a mere $800 above the cited Golf Comfortline TD. Ford also do an option-enhanced (ie 'extra value pack') Falcon XR6 auto at the same price point (including no-cost LPG), as does Holden with Commodore International mid-lux which iirc is a tarted-up optioned-out Omega.

Random mention: I see Renault dealers offering Laguna Expression M6 2.0L turbo-diesels @ $33k and Megane Expression sedan 1.9 TD M6 for a mere $19k! Either one of these sadly forgotten Renaults is stellar value imo and would get my value-preference over the VAG stuff.

[henk4]

Btw all those VAG vehicle prices in my list are for 6-speed 'sequential' transmissions (DSG?)

Fyi here's some local car prices for a value comparison; the Falcon G6 (mid-lux) 4.0L auto sedan with leather, 18" mags, Bluetooth , I-pod integration and factory LPG @ $36,490 - a mere $800 above the cited Golf Comfortline TD. Ford also do an option-enhanced (ie 'extra value pack') Falcon XR6 auto at the same price point (including no-cost LPG), as does Holden with Commodore International mid-lux which iirc is a tarted-up optioned-out Omega.

Random mention: I see Renault dealers offering Laguna Expression M6 2.0L turbo-diesels @ $33k and Megane Expression sedan 1.9 TD M6 for a mere $19k! Either one of these sadly forgotten Renaults is stellar value imo and would get my value-preference over the VAG stuff.

Conclusion: VAG is expensive...or overpriced.

[Ferrer]

Conclusion: VAG is expensive...or overpriced.

Or you could look outside Volkswagen and buy their "value" brands.