Toyota deliberately chose to ignore the facts.

[culver]

You are behind the Crown Vic times. The Thecarconnection.com had an article titled Numbers Don't Damn the Crown Vic. Basically, far more so than the Pinto case the statistics, not the scare tactics, the stats don't agree that their is anything inherently wrong with the Crown Vic with regards to rear impact safety.
Sadly the article is off their site. However here is the results of one of the lawsuits
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...crown_vic.html

Quoting that article suggests you are falling for the same hysteria that accompanied the Audi as well as the current Toyota fear. Well, except that the Crown Vic's record of fires is actually quite admirable where as Toyota's unintended acceleration problem is much worse than the admittedly very low industry rate.

[G35COUPE]

You are behind the Crown Vic times. The Thecarconnection.com had an article titled Numbers Don't Damn the Crown Vic. Basically, far more so than the Pinto case the statistics, not the scare tactics, the stats don't agree that their is anything inherently wrong with the Crown Vic with regards to rear impact safety.
Sadly the article is off their site. However here is the results of one of the lawsuits
Jury Finds Ford Not Liable in Crown Vic Fire

Quoting that article suggests you are falling for the same hysteria that accompanied the Audi as well as the current Toyota fear. Well, except that the Crown Vic's record of fires is actually quite admirable where as Toyota's unintended acceleration problem is much worse than the admittedly very low industry rate.

On the same page of that article you provided, where Ford was not found liable, I found an article showing the same Ford recalling their Crown Vics for fire hazard. How is this possible? Why are they recalling vehicles they beleive are safe? That Ford was not found liable in one case, does little to quench the possibility that the Crown Vic could be prone to fires when hit from behind.


http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recal...lice_cars.html

[culver]

Please spend your time trying to find a copy of the article "Numbers don't damn the Crown Vic." Find that article, read it then get back to me.

[wwgkd]

i remember in at least one case they had time to call 911 and say a prayer. rather than doing something useful.

That was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer. They rarely do anything useful. On the other hand the couple that died when their car crashed through the side of a parking garage probably had no time to react.

[roosterjuicer]

They hopefully ignored it as a way to kill off drivers who are too stupid to figure out to put the damn car into neutral if the throttle is tuck. Furthering the species.

hahaha my thoughts exactly!

[NSXType-R]

That was a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer. They rarely do anything useful. On the other hand the couple that died when their car crashed through the side of a parking garage probably had no time to react.

What's bothering me is that, I don't know, they should be somewhat good in a car...?

Why didn't he shift into neutral and try braking? I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I'm pretty sure he had to go through driver training to become a CHP officer anyway.

[Brix]

What's bothering me is that, I don't know, they should be somewhat good in a car...?

Why didn't he shift into neutral and try braking? I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I'm pretty sure he had to go through driver training to become a CHP officer anyway.

It's almost impossible to know how you would react in such an accident!
It's like getting robbed, you don't know how you are going to react.

[culver]

The brakes were overheated. He clearly tried braking. The problem is the brakes are vacuum boosted. That vacuum comes from the intake manifold. At WOT you don't have much manifold vacuum. Normally this isn't a problem as the car has a vacuum canister to maintain vacuum pressure even at WOT. However, that vacuum system is only good for a few applications of the brake pedal (like 2-3). You can try this with your own car. Just after you shut it off press the brakes. They will feel "normal". Press again and they will feel harder. Press a third time and they may feel totally unassisted.

So the brakes are strong enough to stop the motor. That was my first thought as well. However, without the booster are you strong enough to press the brakes? I've read it takes something like 250lbs of force on the pedals to get the brakes to over power the motor. That's quite a bit.

Also consider that the brakes can still over heat. If you don't press hard enough the brakes will over heat before the car is stopped. At that point the engine will over power the brakes.

So if you realize what's happening you can press the brakes once and stop the car. If you don't realize and press the brakes say 2 times, you might just be screwed as far as the brakes are concerned.

Shift to neutral isn't as clear. I see three possibilities here. One is that he was just dumb and didn't realize it. Maybe but if you have time to call 911 odds are you have enough time to think of that. Still we can't rule it out.

The second possibility was one I read in an article. It suggested that the design of the shift pattern with the manual matic mode near the other gear selections might have made it harder to find neutral. I guess the implication is in an attempt to shift to neutral you would move the shifter past and into say sport mode or something. Perhaps he pushed the shifter past N and into P. In P the transmission might ignore the selection knowing that engaging reverse at 100mph is not a good thing.

The third possibility is one that I have seen in an article so perhaps it is very wrong. Perhaps the car could/would not go into neutral. Certainly a modern transmission such as that Lexus uses will not down shift into an over rev state. I also think it will refuse to go into reverse at more than say 5mph. I don't think their is anything that stops that transmission from going into neutral at any speed. However, what if there was a software bug? There is already some evidence that the unintended acceleration might be software vs hardware related. If that's the case what if the problem is simply the computer starts ignoring commands such at throttle and shifter settings? Perhaps the ECU either via properly operating code or simply a bug was not shifting out of gear.

I admit the last one is a unlikely from a technical point of view but at the same time it would explain why the car wasn't put into neutral. I do find it somewhat hard to believe the driver didn't at least have a try at neutral. I find it somewhat easier to believe that with a complex and unfamiliar shift pattern he might have missed neutral.

[Ferrer]

Forgive me for saying this, but in such cases a manual is a safety feature.

[whiteballz]

...It has a push-button start so you have to hold the "START" button for 3-seconds.

Second guy get same car, it is a loaner so he is probably not familiar with how it works, throttle sticks again and the brakes don't work to stop the car and crashes into an intersection killing himself and three other family members.

Now if you are not familiar with the car, would you know that you have to hold the START button down for three seconds to turn the engine off?...

Your right, He just left it idling in his driveway each night.

It was HIS responsibility that he knew how to turn a car off, throwing a car into neutral and applying the handbrake/brakes and worse case steering the car into a kerb to retard speed isnt a bad thing.

It's almost impossible to know how you would react in such an accident!
It's like getting robbed, you don't know how you are going to react.

I agree, However abit of common sence wouldn't have gone astray.

There was a case over here late last year, some dude got the cruise control stuck on his ford explorer while on the highway, It took him 45minutes of driving, while on the phone to the police to stop the car.

They had time to GIVE HIM A POLICE ESCORT so they could figure out what to do.
In the end it was solved by him braking and reefing the handbrake. Viola! why did he need the police to tell him to do that?..

Or is it just me that views that as something you should try before crying on the phone to police about how your big nasty car wont stop driving at 110kph?

[clutch-monkey]

They had time to GIVE HIM A POLICE ESCORT so they could figure out what to do.

pull in front of him and slow down. solved

[wwgkd]

Your right, He just left it idling in his driveway each night.

It was HIS responsibility that he knew how to turn a car off, throwing a car into neutral and applying the handbrake/brakes and worse case steering the car into a kerb to retard speed isnt a bad thing.




I agree, However abit of common sence wouldn't have gone astray.

There was a case over here late last year, some dude got the cruise control stuck on his ford explorer while on the highway, It took him 45minutes of driving, while on the phone to the police to stop the car.

They had time to GIVE HIM A POLICE ESCORT so they could figure out what to do.
In the end it was solved by him braking and reefing the handbrake. Viola! why did he need the police to tell him to do that?..

Or is it just me that views that as something you should try before crying on the phone to police about how your big nasty car wont stop driving at 110kph?

It was a loaner car while his was getting worked on.

pull in front of him and slow down. solved

hehe. With a little damage to the car in front of it, but still a simple solution.

[whiteballz]

It was a loaner car while his was getting worked on.

So he was driving it home from the shop?

[culver]

I've driven cars with keyless ignition. I don't expect to have to know how to turn the car off at highway speeds. Remember that in neutral or park you don't have to hold the power button. One touch and it's off.

[Ferrer]

So basically complexity makes cars dangerous.