View Poll Results: UCP Car of the Decade

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  • Alfa Romeo 159

    2 4.88%
  • Alfa Romeo 8C

    3 7.32%
  • Aston Martin DB9

    7 17.07%
  • BMW 3 Series E90-E93

    4 9.76%
  • Bugatti Veyron

    14 34.15%
  • Cadillac CTS (1st Generation)

    1 2.44%
  • Chevrolet Corvette (C6)

    3 7.32%
  • Chrysler 300

    1 2.44%
  • Citroen C6

    2 4.88%
  • Ferrari F430 Scuderia

    1 2.44%
  • Fiat Panda 100 HP

    3 7.32%
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Thread: UCP Awards 2009: Car of the Decade [Preliminary Voting 1]

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
    The SSC is a tempremental thing that requires tuning reguarly.

    I reckon the Veyron needs service as well, but you're buying into a whole deal - the after sales support, etc.

    I get the SSC might technically be quicker, but it's a brute force thing, the Veyron is comparitively more exciting technically.
    Where did you hear that it needs regular tuning? Not arguing, just not something I had heard. I can see how many people would assume that, but there's a lot of assumptions about the SSC which turn out not to be true (for instance that it's aerodynamics produce massive lift or that the handling is horrible.)

    I would actually consider the veyron the brute force approach. More cylinders, more displacement, more turbos, more driven wheels, more weight, more force required. It achieves it's top speed by throwing massive power at it, not through efficient design. The SSC reaches higher speeds by being more effecient aerodynamically, which I would consider a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    The A8 has a aluminum body and chasis. Altough some of the weight difference could also be due to the overengineering in some Phaeton parts.

    By the way, I don't think the Veyron a representation of the noughties. That's the Hummer as was nominated. The Veyron would be a worthy car in any decade. And yes it does have high running costs, but I doubt any of its theorical rivals is exactly cheap to run.
    Not cheap, but the veyron takes things to extremes. In the veyron if you get a flat you have to send the entire wheel to france to get a new tire fitted (extra lengths required not because of it's performance but because you're achieving that performance on something which weighs over 4,000lbs.) The SSC uses Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s. The SSC runs on 91 octane (using (R+M)/2 method of measuring) fuel which is easily available from the pump anywhere.
    The veyron requires custom everything, much of which isn't because of it's speed but because of it's weight.

    I'm still not getting how the veyron is so comfortable, yes it has some luxury features, but so does the SSC and everyone who's ever driven a veyron remarks on how loud the it is and how rough it rides. The only time one has ever reached it's top speeds was on that one groomed track rather than on public streets like the SSC, so yes the veyron has done it repeatedly but I believe that the edge there would go to the SSC.

    I think the SSC doesn't get the respect of the veyron because everyone "knows" that to really reach those speeds you need fancy lowering suspension and trick wings and it can't possibly be the result of a small anonymous car company. Beyond the razzle dazzle and the name (which is not related to anything anyways) I don't believe the veyron is a better car than the SSC, or Koenigseg.

    I don't think any of them deserve to be the COTD, but the veryon less so that the others. Everyone talks about how it set the bar so high that it can never be passed, yet it was passed before it was ever set, and for a fraction of the cost. For that much money I expect a lot more than what the veyron presents.

    Yes, it's a minor miracle that the thing even works, but lets give it the Rube Goldberg design award then, not COTD.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwgkd View Post
    Where did you hear that it needs regular tuning? Not arguing, just not something I had heard. I can see how many people would assume that, but there's a lot of assumptions about the SSC which turn out not to be true (for instance that it's aerodynamics produce massive lift or that the handling is horrible.)

    I would actually consider the veyron the brute force approach. More cylinders, more displacement, more turbos, more driven wheels, more weight, more force required. It achieves it's top speed by throwing massive power at it, not through efficient design. The SSC reaches higher speeds by being more effecient aerodynamically, which I would consider a good thing.
    The SSC is a tuner car, essentially. It's not a completely clean sheet design.

    And because of that, one could rightly presume there would be a lot of room for tinkering and requirement for maintenance upkeep.

    The SSC might be more efficient in terms of aerodynamics, But I feel as though the "more" approach you see applied to the Veyron is with purpose - it's a sure footed thing by all accounts that get's it's job done without too much fuss.

    That and it's a car you could theoretically use daily - it's small enough to navigate around town, and relatively comfortable. I guess not things generally considered when outright speed is the main goal.

    It's very much two different approaches to the design of each car. the SSC is a what you could consider a backyard operation compared to the big budget challenge Bugatti has behind it. It's also considerably safer (having been crash tested etc) and available globally, something the SSC is not, to my understanding.

    So the SSC, when measured against the criteria of outright speed, is indeed victorious. However, the Veyron is a better all rounder, and a remarkable acheivement for a car of it's capability. Sure, there are compromises, but it does a lot of things right.
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  3. #33
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    Not to be annoying, but I too am a bit of a backer of the SSC Aero. Yes it's a small start up company, yes it uses old Focus headlamps, but Pagani had to start somewhere too.

    And not to say that Jay Leno is the absolute automotive authority, his video of the SSC Aero was pretty good.

    I wouldn't want to own a SSC Aero, but it is a roadworthy car. The Moslers I don't like too much, they're not really roadworthy.

    That doesn't mean I like the Veyron any much more though.

    Just because it's a small company doesn't mean the owner doesn't take it any less seriously. Again, take a look at Pagani.

  4. #34
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    No one's doubting their commitment, but a Comparison to Pagani is a little bit of a stretch.

    Pagani had been working on his chassis set up for nearly 15 years before the Zonda was released, and used F1 technology and test drivers to come up with something that, all things considered, was not the first run car you expected.

    SSC, by comparison, have had a shorter lead in time and come up with some success, but, and perhaps this is a little bit of snobbery, but the last tenth of polish just isn't there. Those sorts of compromises (the Focus Headlights, for instance) aren't made in a Zonda.

    Or, Indeed, a Veyron.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
    The SSC is a tuner car, essentially. It's not a completely clean sheet design.

    And because of that, one could rightly presume there would be a lot of room for tinkering and requirement for maintenance upkeep.

    The SSC might be more efficient in terms of aerodynamics, But I feel as though the "more" approach you see applied to the Veyron is with purpose - it's a sure footed thing by all accounts that get's it's job done without too much fuss.

    That and it's a car you could theoretically use daily - it's small enough to navigate around town, and relatively comfortable. I guess not things generally considered when outright speed is the main goal.

    It's very much two different approaches to the design of each car. the SSC is a what you could consider a backyard operation compared to the big budget challenge Bugatti has behind it. It's also considerably safer (having been crash tested etc) and available globally, something the SSC is not, to my understanding.

    So the SSC, when measured against the criteria of outright speed, is indeed victorious. However, the Veyron is a better all rounder, and a remarkable acheivement for a car of it's capability. Sure, there are compromises, but it does a lot of things right.
    This.

    In a way, a Veyron isn't a supercar. It's an über-GT.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    This.

    In a way, a Veyron isn't a supercar. It's an über-GT.
    It is what Ferdinand Piech wanted his dick to look like. (maybe also performance-wise)
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  7. #37
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    Yes. And it's a Corrado on steroids and it's useless and it's an afront to a name like Bugatti and so on and so forth.

    But that doesn't change the fact that, like others, it's quite a car, this.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
    The SSC is a tuner car, essentially. It's not a completely clean sheet design.

    And because of that, one could rightly presume there would be a lot of room for tinkering and requirement for maintenance upkeep.

    The SSC might be more efficient in terms of aerodynamics, But I feel as though the "more" approach you see applied to the Veyron is with purpose - it's a sure footed thing by all accounts that get's it's job done without too much fuss.

    That and it's a car you could theoretically use daily - it's small enough to navigate around town, and relatively comfortable. I guess not things generally considered when outright speed is the main goal.

    It's very much two different approaches to the design of each car. the SSC is a what you could consider a backyard operation compared to the big budget challenge Bugatti has behind it. It's also considerably safer (having been crash tested etc) and available globally, something the SSC is not, to my understanding.

    So the SSC, when measured against the criteria of outright speed, is indeed victorious. However, the Veyron is a better all rounder, and a remarkable acheivement for a car of it's capability. Sure, there are compromises, but it does a lot of things right.
    What does it share? Headlights? Lots of manufacturers (lamborghini for one)are sharing bits and pieces, people don't say they're not cars because of that. Do you respect the Koenigsegg that much less for using a ford based engine? If the headlights work well, why not use them? They'd be cheaper and easier to replace when they burn out.

    I understand the skepticism of the design, but you're assuming that because it's a small american manufacturer it's going to need more maintinance and upkeep. I've never heard that to be true, though, and don't want to jump to conclusions just because the company is what it is.

    I've actually read a couple of tests that said the Veyron in top speed mode (the whole point of the car) didn't track very well, and that little cross breezes induced a bit of drifting. Never heard anything similar about the SSC. Despite the fact that everyone assumes that any body which reaches those speeds without a wing rising out of the back will generate lift (such as they vetyron which was not originally designed for those speeds) the SSC does generate downforce and actually has a phenominal suspension setup which allows it to handle very well. Which is part of my problem with assumptions in such matters.

    I don't see how a Veyron would be easier to drive around town than the SSC. There's not a ton of size difference, and they both have similar clearance, so if you're willing to drive a veyron somewhere, why would the SSC pose a problem? It also comes with a nav system, if you require that sort of thing in your super car.

    Since the SSC is not being sold as a kit car, it does have to meet the same crash saftey and emissions standards as any other car on the road in the US.

    The Veyron is a remarkable achievment. But the SSC does everything the Veyron can do, albiet with less flash, for a fraction of the price. Which makes it just as, if not more, remarkable. The only problems I see with the SSC come down to snob appeal, which it doesn't have. I'm not sure that any car built in the US will have that appeal, to be honest. The Saleen S7 had similar problems, bit it too is a very remarkable super car.

    I'm not saying the SSC is my favorite supercar, but it does ddeserve more respect than it gets. And certainly the Veyron is not the greatest supercar ever or even of the decade just because it's more useable than an racecar (just about everything is) and has the second highest top speed.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    It is what Ferdinand Piech wanted his dick to look like. (maybe also performance-wise)
    Perhaps the most concise single sentence ever written about the Veyron. Pure lulz, but likely with some truth.

    There is no question the Bugatti is impressive, but why on earth would this poll also include the pedestrian Panda?
    Not a bad car, but these lists of such disparate autos are silly. The groupings within these preliminary polls are seriously flawed.

    Group supercars together, Bugatti with Zonda, SSC, Enzo, et. al.

    Ditto 300C, C6, etc. Each within a distinct class... THEN throw the winners into COTD, COTY.

    And if this audience is so clueless of the criteria (other than thinking the "coolest" car should prevail) well, there's a microcosm psychographic portrait of UCP users. Not a bad thing, just perhaps dissappointing for some of us. If it really is just another popularity contest, no prelim polling was needed.
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  10. #40
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    Ranked by price; high to low in USD. Conversions were made for GBP and EUR (I know it's not the best way to calculate price given the current FX market but the numbers are pretty close). I was going to model one by car type (supercar, sedan, etc) also but I didn't so here you go.***

    EDIT: Also, take into account that some of the numbers may be off. I did not look specifically for 09 prices but original MSRP; even that may be off... I'm not getting paid to do this shit so you get half-assed research.


    Bugatti Veyron ___ 1700000
    Pagani Zonda F ___ 740000
    Lamborghini Murcialago ___ 400000
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia ___ 280000
    Alfa Romeo 8C ___ 230000
    Lamborghini LP560-4 ___ 200000 25000 GBP
    Aston Martin DB9 ___ 190000
    Tesla Roadster ___ 130000
    Maserati Quattroporte ___ 120000
    Porsche GT3 (997) ___ 105000
    VW Phaeton ___ 94000 10000 GBP
    Nissan GTR (R35) ___ 80000
    Noble M12 ___ 76000
    Corvette (C6) 74000 40000 GBP
    Hummer H2 ___ 63000 28360 EUR
    TVR Tuscan S ___ 61000
    Citroen C6 ___ 46000
    BMW 3 Series (E90-E92) ___ 40000
    Cadillac CTS (5th Generation) ___ 39000 50000 GBP
    Alfa Romeo 159 ___ 38000
    Lotus Elise (Series 2) ___ 38000
    Chrysler 300 ___ 29000
    VW Golf Gti (MkV) ___ 26000
    Toyota Prius (2nd Generation) ___ 23000
    Honda FCX Clarity ___ 21000
    Mini Cooper (R53) ___ 21000
    Toyot a Camry (7th Generation) ___ 21000 17000 GBP
    Mazda MX-5 (3rd Generation) ___ 19000
    Toyota IQ ___ 15000
    Fiat Panda (100 hp) ___ 11000 30000 GBP
    Tata Nano ___ 2500


    EDIT: EDIT: Boredom struck, you get one by type. "Super Car" is anything with two doors and track worthy, which is why the Lotus and Veyron are in the same grouping; these can be grouped by price above. "Sedan" is anything that is daily driver friendly. "Sport Sedan" is a sedan but sporty. "SUV" is the Hummer.... Whether it's a literal sedan or super car is not the point (I didn't want to make a hundred variables for "4-door hybrid" and "2-door sports car low price," etc.); they can be compared by similar category and purpose.

    Citroen C6 ___ Sedan
    VW Golf Gti (MkV)___ Sedan
    Toyota Prius (2nd Generation)___ Sedan
    Honda FCX Clarity___ Sedan
    Mini Cooper (R53)___ Sedan
    Toyota Camery (7th Generation)___ Sedan
    Toyota IQ___ Sedan
    Fiat Panda (100 hp)___ Sedan
    Tata Nano ___Sedan

    Maserati Quattroporte ___Sport Sedan
    VW Phaeton___ Sport Sedan
    BMW 3 Series (E90-E92)___ Sport Sedan
    Caddilac CTS (5th Generation) ___Sport Sedan
    Chrysler 300___ Sport Sedan
    Alfa Romeo 159___ Sport Sedan

    Bugatti Veyron___ Super Car
    Pagani Zonda F___ Super Car
    Lamborghini Murcialago ___Super Car
    Ferrari 430 Scuderia ___Super Car
    Alfa Romeo 8C ___Super Car
    Lambroghini LP560-4___ Super Car
    Aston Martin DB9 ___Super Car
    Tesla Roadster ___Super Car
    Porsche GT3 (997) ___Super Car
    Nissan GTR (R35) ___Super Car
    Noble M12 ___Super Car
    Corvette (C6) ___Super Car
    TVR Tuscan S___ Super Car
    Lotus Elise (Series 2)___ Super Car
    Mazda MX-5 (3rd Generation) ___Super Car

    Hummer H2___ SUV
    Last edited by LTSmash; 02-26-2010 at 08:25 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wwgkd View Post
    What does it share? Headlights? Lots of manufacturers (lamborghini for one)are sharing bits and pieces, people don't say they're not cars because of that. Do you respect the Koenigsegg that much less for using a ford based engine? If the headlights work well, why not use them? They'd be cheaper and easier to replace when they burn out.
    The Bits you touch in a Koenigsegg - and the bits you view - are at least bespoke.

    And it doesn't look like a kit car.

    I understand the skepticism of the design, but you're assuming that because it's a small american manufacturer it's going to need more maintinance and upkeep. I've never heard that to be true, though, and don't want to jump to conclusions just because the company is what it is.
    It's not a stretch to imagine a vehicle that has not had the millions of dollars spent on it's R&D as a Veyron to have a few issues with durability, is it?

    I've actually read a couple of tests that said the Veyron in top speed mode (the whole point of the car) didn't track very well, and that little cross breezes induced a bit of drifting. Never heard anything similar about the SSC. Despite the fact that everyone assumes that any body which reaches those speeds without a wing rising out of the back will generate lift (such as they vetyron which was not originally designed for those speeds) the SSC does generate downforce and actually has a phenominal suspension setup which allows it to handle very well. Which is part of my problem with assumptions in such matters.
    And I've seen a few tests which says the Veyron is in fact ridiculously calm at maximum attack - or at least relatively to the manic nature of a McLaren F1 (or SSC).

    It's a fairly subjective thing to argue either way.

    I don't see how a Veyron would be easier to drive around town than the SSC. There's not a ton of size difference, and they both have similar clearance, so if you're willing to drive a veyron somewhere, why would the SSC pose a problem? It also comes with a nav system, if you require that sort of thing in your super car.
    I've seen dimensions of a Veyron, are there some Dimension comparisons available for the SSC to compare?

    Is the suspension on the SSC adjustable?

    Since the SSC is not being sold as a kit car, it does have to meet the same crash saftey and emissions standards as any other car on the road in the US.
    But does it? aren't there limitations to that in terms of what is classed as a safe vehicle? Are computer simulations acceptable for a small scale operation such as this?

    The Veyron is a remarkable achievment. But the SSC does everything the Veyron can do, albiet with less flash, for a fraction of the price.
    I don't think it matches the prestige, at all.

    Regardless of the price, the impression left is that your buying the Skoda instead of purchasing the Audi, no pun intended.

    Which makes it just as, if not more, remarkable. The only problems I see with the SSC come down to snob appeal, which it doesn't have. I'm not sure that any car built in the US will have that appeal, to be honest. The Saleen S7 had similar problems, bit it too is a very remarkable super car.
    With some remarkable issues - as all supercars of it's type have. That extra 10% that you pay the extra $400,000 for might just be worthwhile.

    I'm not saying the SSC is my favorite supercar, but it does ddeserve more respect than it gets. And certainly the Veyron is not the greatest supercar ever or even of the decade just because it's more useable than an racecar (just about everything is) and has the second highest top speed.
    The SSC is a capable car, no doubt.

    But I rate the Veyron over it simply because it's a more capable car over most fields of comparison. While the SSC is quicker, the Veyron does it with greater distinction.

    Snobbery? maybe, but if you can't be a snob when you pay $1 million for a car, when can you?
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by csl177 View Post
    There is no question the Bugatti is impressive, but why on earth would this poll also include the pedestrian Panda?
    Why not? A worthy car is a worth car, regardless of pricetag or purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by csl177 View Post
    And if this audience is so clueless of the criteria (other than thinking the "coolest" car should prevail) well, there's a microcosm psychographic portrait of UCP users. Not a bad thing, just perhaps dissappointing for some of us. If it really is just another popularity contest, no prelim polling was needed.
    That's indeed a problem. But as you point out, more a problem of the voters than the groupings itselves.

    EDIT And please LT, edit your post include the 159 as a sports saloon.
    Last edited by Ferrer; 02-26-2010 at 08:21 AM.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    EDIT And please LT, edit your post include the 159 as a sports saloon.
    Done.

  14. #44
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    Thanks.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by csl177 View Post
    There is no question the Bugatti is impressive, but why on earth would this poll also include the pedestrian Panda?
    Perhaps because the pedestrian 100 HP is sort of what the first mini cooper was...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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