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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niko_Fx View Post
    Easier access to government-funded health insurance for those that can't afford insurance. I'm insured by my employer, afaik I won't be affected much.

    It's pretty complex though, if you watch CNN you wind up confused, if you watch Fox you hate the reform... lol.
    this.

    the universally available public health care was killed off early on. but there were many safeguards put in place to allow people to keep health insurance after losing a job. you can now keep a child on your insurance up to age 26, instead of 22, to account for a large number of people going straight from undergrad to graduate programs. the government insurance niko mentioned is for either the elderly (medicare) or poor (medicaid). both of those programs were expanded, but mostly medicaid. and also these are actually current, widespread applications of the dreaded 'socialized medicine' that so many people fought against.
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  2. #17
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    Also, you get a bit more help in terms of getting insurance in that they can't deny you coverage any more.

    For most people its status quo....for Insurance its extra income. For some wealthy its a couple bucks they for all likelihood will not notice missing too much(although they will likely argue to death otherwise). Its still no where near the socialized medicine like Canada or European countries....
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  3. #18
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    yeah, i missed that. if you make over 250k per year, your taxes will go up to cover it.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcpokey View Post
    yeah, i missed that. if you make over 250k per year, your taxes will go up to cover it.
    I think that's the true tragedy here. What's worse than having a few thousand dollars less in disposable income when you make over a quarter million a year when others are going bankrupt and not being able to afford necessary medical procedures? Tax is theft after all. Surely you can trade off universal healthcare, which is clearly of the devil, because it would cost rich people some money.


    When are people gonna start standing up for the rights of the supremely wealthy?

    This healthcare reform, or as I like to call it, socialized or communist helathcare, is just another step on the road down to communism for the USA. I always knew Obama was a secret Marxist/Communist/Socialist/Extreme Left winger/add another pejorative and inaccurate term here.

    In the words of our Prime Minister, (who at the time described Canada this way) any second now, the US is gonna be a "Northern European welfare state in the worst sense of the term."

    When will the outgunned and underdog neoliberalism/neoconservatism in the US/world defeat evil socialism and provide more wealth world wide for the rich?

    Oh yeah, also something about the rising tide raises all the boats too. See: all the newly rich former poor people in Mexico due to NAFTA! It's not as though there are tons of workers working in maquiladoras for barely survivable wages. It's not as though those workers are paid by a bare means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the labourer in bare existence as a labourer.

    Hmm. I forgot where I read that last bit...

    But in all serious I've been reading political theory so I've had that on the brain. No, I am not a communist, though I don't discard any idea that is vaguely labelled communist or socialist as I feel that there are ideas from across the spectrum that need to be merged for the ultimate practicable state.

    Excuse my rambling.

  5. #20
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    My question is that in the USA, why do people have to pay to stay alive (cancer, ect.)? In Australia, if you could die, or have serious life affecting outcomes, treatment is free. So if you you have cancer say, you get treatment free of charge for approved treatments.
    I want to die in my sleep like my Grandma, not screaming like the other 3 people in her car.

    There are 10 types of people in this world. People who understand binary and people who don't.

  6. #21
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    Welcome America to the world of solidarity (no, not socialism). You have just made some initial steps forward, but still a long way to go.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  7. #22
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    Followed this from afar .. adn enjoyed Beck's rants against the "COMMUNIST" helath reforms. So my inputs fomr the extreme may not be legitimate

    However, I'd say the problem is this will be diluted and bastardised until it fails.
    It does seem in the US's genes to resent anything centralised or common for all to the point it gets ruined by political (federal, state and local) dabbling to make it seem less "socialist". Thus attempts in the past to provide social care is innefective because it tries to operate as a business and of course then becomes an example for extremeists to demonstrate "why socialism doesn't work". The S-word was OK, it was the C-word that screws it up.

    So health care WAS OK in the past, insurance was affordable for businesses and hospitals/doctors provided pro-bono for the very few left. BUT, the healthe care needed to "grow" because it was a "business". It needed to make profits, needed to provide dividends and share growth to investors. AND SO .... services had to be cut, prices had to increase. I contend the US insurance system woudl have been fine if it didn't have profits and investors as it's master.

    But having screwed up that system and I suggest anyone woudl realise that any commercial system put in place woudl inevitably go the same way and so Obama tried to pitch for "a better way" SHame that it's now iluted to a commercial enterprise. Sadly one which for the reasons given before will in the long term come to the same problematic end-game the US is currently in.

    To stir it up, I've a rationale why this isn't a big problem for many in the US and why Europe didn't have it ( but it's starting ). That is the proximity of "poverty" and "needy" indivuduals and families. US is so large that the middle class/rich areas very seldom come in contact with those in real need. In the UK, we are 66M packed in to a tiny island and so we effecticly stand shoulder to shoudler with those who suffer most. Makes us do two things ... One, want it to be better and Two, recognise that we are all equally deserving. Just my "Glenn Beck moment" for today

    What I think is going to be VERY important for US health care is protecting the HOSPITALS and staff to do the work they do now. By virtue of size, many new procedures are developed. eg ONE surgeon in the US performs more of one particular operation than all doctors in all hospitals in Scotland. So "we" benefit from that US size and I'd hate to see that get lost in the political machinations that are going to be fought over the next few years
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  8. #23
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    I have problems with health care as a business, as a personal belief that most good societies of times past had some form of community support, at the very least, during times of trial or sickness.

    I'm not foolish enough to think these services come for free, but at the same time, there has to be some mixture of private and government input. I guess the balance at the moment just isn't right.

    Putting a dollar value on suffering is an industry that must be soul crushing for those involved - both those in sickness and in wealth.
    Last edited by IBrake4Rainbows; 03-23-2010 at 04:55 AM.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by acfsambo View Post
    My question is that in the USA, why do people have to pay to stay alive (cancer, ect.)? In Australia, if you could die, or have serious life affecting outcomes, treatment is free. So if you you have cancer say, you get treatment free of charge for approved treatments.
    Not free, just paid in advance in taxes....and the money is pooled and directed to those needed. Some people sees that as handout though to the people who does not "deserve" it.

    Takes too much to try to understand the psyche of conservative America....right now its fine and dandy and does not affect me, but if it gets too f-ed up I might just go back to Canada...lol
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcpokey View Post
    yeah, i missed that. if you make over 250k per year, your taxes will go up to cover it.
    A tax bracket most of those protesting aren't in. They are pissed about something, just not what they should be. For the record, I'm in that top 1% group and won't notice the modest tax increase. In fact the break we were given by Bush was far greater than the laughable "benefit" to the middle class. Nonetheless, the sheeple inexplicably believe the talking points.
    Quote Originally Posted by acfsambo View Post
    My question is that in the USA, why do people have to pay to stay alive (cancer, etc.)? In Australia, if you could die, or have serious life affecting outcomes, treatment is free. So if you you have cancer say, you get treatment free of charge for approved treatments.
    It was once the nature of hospitals in the US to care for the indigent, but that was before privatization.
    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Welcome America to the world of solidarity (no, not socialism). You have just made some initial steps forward, but still a long way to go.
    America once largely hewed to an "all for one, one for all" sensibility, which climaxed after WW2. The past 40 years so-called "conservatism" has virtually destroyed what was once a fairly civil country. At least for white people, but that's another part of the subtext previously discussed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    So health care WAS OK in the past, insurance was affordable for businesses and hospitals/doctors provided pro-bono for the very few left. BUT, the health care needed to "grow" because it was a "business". It needed to make profits, needed to provide dividends and share growth to investors. AND SO .... services had to be cut, prices had to increase. I contend the US insurance system woudl have been fine if it didn't have profits and investors as it's master.:
    Exactly so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    To stir it up, I've a rationale why this isn't a big problem for many in the US and why Europe didn't have it ( but it's starting ). That is the proximity of "poverty" and "needy" indivuduals and families. US is so large that the middle class/rich areas very seldom come in contact with those in real need. In the UK, we are 66M packed in to a tiny island and so we effecticly stand shoulder to shoudler with those who suffer most. Makes us do two things ... One, want it to be better and Two, recognise that we are all equally deserving. Just my "Glenn Beck moment" for today
    That's the unpleasant subtext of Tea Party protests I spoke of earlier...
    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    What I think is going to be VERY important for US health care is protecting the HOSPITALS and staff to do the work they do now. By virtue of size, many new procedures are developed. eg ONE surgeon in the US performs more of one particular operation than all doctors in all hospitals in Scotland. So "we" benefit from that US size and I'd hate to see that get lost in the political machinations that are going to be fought over the next few years
    Specialization is a good thing but has been driven by profit, to the point that most GPs test patients for everything rather than treat them directly. Two of our friends are internists, and cannot afford to be "family" doctors as was once common. They share a practice and are basically turnstile clinicians, which depresses them both. Another is a skilled heart surgeon that quit, burned out and frustrated by malpractice premiums and how HMOs handled his cases. He raises horses now. And a childhood friend recently left medicine after 25 years as a neurologist because of a lawsuit related to something he had no control over. Obviously, tort reform would be part of any sensible healthcare package... but litigation has become an American tradition.
    Quote Originally Posted by IBrake4Rainbows View Post
    I have problems with health care as a business, as a personal belief that most good societies of times past had some form of community support, at the very least, during times of trial or sickness. Putting a dollar value on suffering is an industry that must be soul crushing for those involved - both those in sickness and in wealth.
    Healthcare workers should be paid for their efforts, it is privitization that has driven their incomes down so that HMO and hospital executives and shareholders benefit, the crux of our failing system. Hospitals were historically non-profit institutions, supported by property taxes. Insurers were held to moderate profits by law. The so-called Reagan Revolution enabled privitization of everything from prisons to our military, and here's where we are as a result: States suffer budget shortfalls, schools without adequate funding, reduced community services. All because the lie that government is bad has been skillfully sold by those that profit from privitization.
    When government is run badly, it's self-fullfilling.
    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    Not free, just paid in advance in taxes....and the money is pooled and directed to those needed. Some people sees that as handout though to the people who does not "deserve" it. Takes too much to try to understand the psyche of conservative America....right now its fine and dandy and does not affect me, but if it gets too f-ed up I might just go back to Canada...lol
    To understand America's psyche, just spend an hour people-watching at any big-box store.
    Never own more cars than you can keep charged batteries in...

  11. #26
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    so I should have said: "Welcome Back America"
    Actually I think that also this will contribute to reinstating the global respect that the USA so glorioulsy managed to loose during the eight years of bushfires.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    so I should have said: "Welcome Back America"
    Actually I think that also this will contribute to reinstating the global respect that the USA so glorioulsy managed to loose during the eight years of bushfires.
    you think so? i am not so sure. as half of our country has readily proven that they are willing to marginalize personal and civil rights, and return to the good ol days of rampant racism and sexism. and that corporations are more important than the individual. it seems that while some significant legislation has passed, the true character of the country has been really exposed. and that is far worse than just being able to pin it on a few individuals.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcpokey View Post
    you think so? i am not so sure. as half of our country has readily proven that they are willing to marginalize personal and civil rights, and return to the good ol days of rampant racism and sexism. and that corporations are more important than the individual. it seems that while some significant legislation has passed, the true character of the country has been really exposed. and that is far worse than just being able to pin it on a few individuals.
    It is not yet back, but it is not deteriorating any more, if I take my own judgement as a standard. But there are still some bridges to cross and mountains to climb...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  14. #29
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    I should be following this more closely, but I haven't. Yes, I'm glad it passed too. We had to do something about it.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    I think that's the true tragedy here. What's worse than having a few thousand dollars less in disposable income when you make over a quarter million a year when others are going bankrupt and not being able to afford necessary medical procedures? Tax is theft after all. Surely you can trade off universal healthcare, which is clearly of the devil, because it would cost rich people....

    ....

    ....But in all serious I've been reading political theory so I've had that on the brain. No, I am not a communist, though I don't discard any idea that is vaguely labelled communist or socialist as I feel that there are ideas from across the spectrum that need to be merged for the ultimate practicable state.

    Excuse my rambling.
    This doesn't sound like you. Imposter, reveal yourself.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Niko_Fx View Post
    All I know is that I have stock in a couple of pharmaceutical companies and they were all green today
    This was inevitable no matter which way it passed. I'm with CNBC on oil getting screwed and the dollar (long) going down because of this. Gold has done well when economic data is bad and I can't imagine the Fed will look sunny on the new spending, so this may be golds return after the dollar having a few months in happy town at the euros demise. As with US AAA rating possibly going away as a result of the new healthcare reform, some equities would have gone up no matter what.

    This spending is/could be bad no matter which way you look at it. Many American's may get the healthcare but at what cost? This is an opportunity cost and and corporate America could be viewed as the cost. As I mentioned before, turning insurers into "utility" companies may have been a more appropriate approach. They are a natural monopoly in a sense and it could have accomplished the same thing with equity and debt financing and no government takeover.

    As stated before, a healtcare overhaul was needed; but not now and not this way. This should have waited until the economy got back on track; and Pelosi is out of her mind in rationalizing this reform to be the first big step in helping the economy recover. This kind of spending is the last thing you want to do when trying to recover from 2008. Not only does it screw the bond market but who in their right mind would invest in dollars now? From an economic perspective this was just the wrong time to pass this.
    Last edited by LTSmash; 03-23-2010 at 01:48 PM.

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