Healthcare

[cargirl1990]

I feel bad for those who aren't covered down in the States. It's like being denied of getting a chance at life...

[Matra et Alpine]

"screwing the bond market" is about what is needed.

The banks and financial institutes need to STOP DICKING AROUND with futures and other financial deriviatives and governments shodul keep out thinking bonds can do the same

MY town bank is the last bank in Britain from the community banking schemes first set up in Scotland 200 years ago. Airdrie Savings Bank is 175 this month and is operating a healthy profit, giving customers good returns on savings and offering good loan rates too.

The Airdrie Savings Bank, at 175 years old, is the sole survivor of the Scottish savings bank movement. That movement was founded in 1810—200 years ago—by the Rev Henry Duncan, in Ruthwell in Dumfriesshire. Henry Duncan started his bank so that everyone, irrespective of their wealth or position, could benefit from saving with a bank. It was common at that time to need a whole £10 to open a bank account—in Ruthwell, sixpence was enough. The bank channelled what surplus it made into a charitable fund, which is a

The Airdrie Savings Bank was established on 1 January 1835, adopting the same principles that were established by the Rev Henry Duncan 25 years previously. Those principles have been proven to stand the test of time. While a storm rages across the financial sector, the Airdrie Savings Bank has remained a port of shelter and calm.

To put it in the words of the bank's chief executive, Jim Lindsay, in a recent interview with The Herald: "Sub-prime? Equities? Absolutely not. This is proper banking".

electronic funds making electronic profits are a fantasy and the sooner we stop the lunatics running that part of the asylum the better

[csl177]

Just curious LTS: what part of the financial industry do you work in?

This was inevitable no matter which way it passed. I'm with CNBC on oil getting screwed and the dollar (long) going down because of this. Gold has done well when economic data is bad and I can't imagine the Fed will look sunny on the new spending, so this may be golds return after the dollar having a few months in happy town at the euros demise. As with US AAA rating possibly going away as a result of the new healthcare reform, some equities would have gone up no matter what.

Oil is back to pre-January prices BECAUSE of the weak dollar and will continue to climb so long as oil is valued by the dollar, hardly a screwing. Gold's historic high of $850 was in 1980, driven as today by energy costs, world-wide inflation as well as investor paranoia:
the Soviets were doing what we are now in Afganistan, and the Iranian revolution was destabilizing the Middle East. Adjusted for inflation, gold's current price is roughly 50% less than that high. The US bond rating falling because of healthcare is a straw-man argument.

This spending is/could be bad no matter which way you look at it. Many American's may get the healthcare but at what cost? This is an opportunity cost and and corporate America could be viewed as the cost. As I mentioned before, turning insurers into "utility" companies may have been a more appropriate approach. They are a natural monopoly in a sense and it could have accomplished the same thing with equity and debt financing and no government takeover.

Read the GAO report: this package (imperfect as it is) saves $130B over the next decade. Corporate America benefits long term from
reduced employee benefit expenditures. Private insurance provided as a utlity is problematic: insurers are largely international corporations; any "natural" monopoly would be under government control, as is the case with most developed countries.

As stated before, a healtcare overhaul was needed; but not now and not this way. This should have waited until the economy got back on track; and Pelosi is out of her mind in rationalizing this reform to be the first big step in helping the economy recover. This kind of spending is the last thing you want to do when trying to recover from 2008. Not only does it screw the bond market but who in their right mind would invest in dollars now? From an economic perspective this was just the wrong time to pass this.

Glad you agree our healthcare system is in trouble. Using "fiscal conservative" talking points undermines the premise that deficit spending can't help the economy long term, though. Did you have the same argument against military budget increases? Did deficit spending in the 1980s concern you? Nearly every economist called for more domestic spending, both for jobs and speeding economic recovery. The bond market suffered because of "investment" instruments tied to bad loans, packaged and sold around the world. Bond default rates will subside as bad debt is eliminated, but much of the damage is done. Thank a lack of regulation for that.

[LTSmash]

Just curious LTS: what part of the financial industry do you work in?

Currently a finance student in limbo...; my father was a retired MD and manager so he used to be a great source for information. Now its a bunch of traders and who-ever in San Francisco and Manhattan who I talk to. Do you work in capital markets?

Oil is back to pre-January prices BECAUSE of the weak dollar and will continue to climb so long as oil is valued by the dollar, hardly a screwing.

PWM guy at BAML SF office had a $90 high for oil in 2010 (before healthcare bill), I think it was. And a GS energy trader I spoke to, as of right now, thinks that dollar-oil hedge isn't 100%, especially in long-term. Either way, the trader I spoke with is a little aprehensive at the moment; but how many times in one week does a trader flip-flop a bet.

The point being the speculation from 2 and 3 and 4 years out is a little bit on the edge for oil.

The US bond rating falling because of healthcare is a straw-man argument.

Touche. I could have worded that better as being a contributor. Housing and other pre-credit crisis effects hold more weight.

Did you have the same argument against military budget increases?

Eh, military spending is a neutral spot for me. I guess I have an easier time coming up with some rational for it.

[Kitdy]

LTSmash you're a libertarian yeah? You support "left wing" social initiatives I take it?

Have you ever read any Rand? I certainly hope you haven't.

[LTSmash]

LTSmash you're a libertarian yeah? You support "left wing" social initiatives I take it?

Correct, to an extent. I'm heavily opposed to the religious right ideologies (you all know that), and I do support welfare programs; sometimes people hit a rough patch and can use a helping hand to pull themselves up again. However, I do believe in individual accountability and not in having someone hold one's hand the whole way. My idea of a welfare program is to help the fallen get back on their feet to a point where they can eventually support themselves again; today it seems as if people have become so lazy that they use welfare indefinitely.

Have you ever read any Rand?

I have not.

[csl177]

Currently a finance student in limbo...; my father was a retired MD and manager so he used to be a great source for information. Now its a bunch of traders and who-ever in San Francisco and Manhattan I talk to. Do you work in capital markets?

No, I was an industrial designer. My wife has been a senior private client FA with the largest US firm for almost 30 years, so some of it has rubbed off. She's a bond specialist as well as member of the Chicago Board of Trade (she began her career in international futures markets) and was recently named by Barron's as a top US financial advisor.

LTSmash you're a libertarian yeah? You support "left wing" social initiatives I take it?

Have you ever read any Rand? I certainly hope you haven't.

Nothing wrong with reading Ayn Rand, just understand objectivist philosophy. She was a sicko, ya know.

[henk4]

No, I was an industrial designer. My wife has been a senior private client FA with the largest US firm for almost 30 years, so some of it has rubbed off. She's a bond specialist as well as member of the Chicago Board of Trade (she began her career in international futures markets) and was recently named by Barron's as a top US financial advisor.


Nothing wrong with reading Ayn Rand, just understand objectivist philosophy. She was a sicko, ya know.

me thinking that he was referring to any reports from the Rand corporation....

[wwgkd]

G35COUPE is gone, so we can be civil. Plus, I just wanted some thoughts on the situation. I don't need to voice my stance; it should be known.

But, I will say that having followed this for such a long time I did want some healthcare reform. This just isn't what I had in mind.

I had a "utility-esque takeover" situation in mind.

I have to agree with this, for several reasons. I agree we neaded something done with the healthcare system (anyone following my medical history should have a good idea I didn't particularly like things as is) but this really wasn't the best solution and no one seems happy about it. Really, you should never underestimate the governments ability to screw something up.

not sure if relevant
but amusing. applying some of the anti-healthcare arguments to other government services

Stick with me here, I have several thoughts which I wanted to voice, but they may be long and not well expressed. I'm also trying to avoid a flame war, though I'd say we're all fairly mature, for the most part.

I thought this was fairly amusing, but not really a straight application. Everyone, even the pensylvania dutch, use public roads. Even if you don't drive or travel, everything you own was delivered at some point by a semi over those roads, so I'm fine with that. Same goes with police/fire departments. And public education is ok with me, because a good education is essential to a good democracy/republic. Healthcare isn't quite as straight forward. Sure you could make the argument for, but also a relatively decent one against. Still, insurance is basically socialized, so we're all agreeing to that in essence when we get insurance.

But, where I differ is that it is illegal to vandalie roads, or schools, or make false police/fire reports. And you get fined for all of that. It's not illegal to be a retard on a motorcycle or bicycle and incur tens of thousands of dollars in medical bills. As it stands I am against any law which is designed to protect you from yourself, since it's not the governments job to look out for me nor should it be burdened with the task. If we were to go for a healthcare system similar to our school systems, then instead of watching and laughing when these guys break their jaw trying to ride a skateboard off the roof of their house with no safety equipment, I'm getting mad at them because I'm paying their medical bills. That's my problem with it.

When I was sitting in the emergency room I saw a guy behind me in line get tired of waiting, walk down the street and call an ambulance for a 1 block ride back, since he arrived by ambulance that automatically bumps him to the top of the list. I don't want to pay for that kind of retardedness especially when all the guy needed was a bandaid and some tylenol.

As the son of a nurse and someone who's spent quite a bit of time in hospitals I see the need for reform, I just don't think this or full socialization is really the way to go.

One last thought: since the majority of a doctors charges is to cover liability insurance, if we could just stop all these bogus lawsuits, that would cut costs greatly right there. End of rant.

yeah, i missed that. if you make over 250k per year, your taxes will go up to cover it.

Except there isn't enough taxable income in that bracket to cover what this thing is projected to cost, even if you take 100% of their taxable income. People need to realize that taxing the well off isn't free money, and some of this is going to come out of their own pockets.

[csl177]

me thinking that he was referring to any reports from the Rand corporation....

Guess an attempt at levity was a fail, but you must admit Kitdy's post is vague.

Without specific reference, few would know the significance of the Rand Corporation's early '70s analysis of the effects of different insurance schemes on healthcare attitudes. BTW, objectivism writ large... and since discredited in many circles.

[LTSmash]

That is managing director (MD) as opposed to medical doctor; just for clarification...

My wife has been a senior private client FA with the largest US firm for almost 30 years

ExxonMobil?

She's a bond specialist as well as member of the Chicago Board of Trade (she began her career in international futures markets) and was recently named by Barron's as a top US financial advisor.

That is well established. I've been trying to see about getting on the floor of the ChiMEX this past year. Thing about futures is that you can have so many opinions on the market at any given moment and still have a safe bet.

Does she handle the 401k's and 529's?

[cmcpokey]

me thinking that he was referring to any reports from the Rand corporation....

Rand Corp has no connection to Ayn Rand whatsoever. Rand of the corporation is a condensation of Research and Development.

[my porsche]

For the record, I'm in that top 1% group

Brave man admitting that on this website.

[franfran]

Nothing wrong with reading Ayn Rand, just understand objectivist philosophy. She was a sicko, ya know.

Having read some of her work, including parts of "Atlas Shrugged", I think her philosophy can be summed up in three words: "greed is good"...........

[henk4]

Rand Corp has no connection to Ayn Rand whatsoever. Rand of the corporation is a condensation of Research and Development.

I know, i did some work with them in the distant past. It was just that Kitdy wrote about "any Rand" that got me going.