More Bad News For Toyota

[coolieman1220]

So as I read in consumer reports (which IMO has no credibility) has deemed the Lexus GX460 unsafe, I thought originally it was because it was so ugly that other drivers would look up in the mirrors and turn to stone. But instead its because the rear suspension will slide and become uncontrollable way before the traction control will kick in which can be dangerous in a real world situation. Toyota claims it will investigate and try to reproduce these claims.

Toyota to temporarily halt sales of Lexus GX 460 - Yahoo! Finance

Lexus GX 460 Rated “Unsafe” by Consumer Reports : World Correspondents

Toyota to stop selling Lexus GX 460 SUV - Autos- msnbc.com

[IBrake4Rainbows]

This sort of thing on Toyota Stability programs isn't particularly new or shocking, But it does say a lot about a tester who pushes the car that far.

Back in 2008 Wheels (A reputed Australian automotive magazine) managed to roll a Toyota Kluger (Highlander) While performing a High-Speed Lane Change. At first they considered the ESP to be at fault, locking up wheels where unnecessary and causing the rollover.

Then they realised they were pushing the car beyond the normal usage limits - at speeds that were unsafe for nearly any car, let alone a top heavy SUV.

I've seen the video of this incident and while I agree it does look like a fairly nasty habit for a large SUV to have, They were coming in hard and fast into that turn.

I get why they test these things to find the limits of adhesion, but Test drivers drive very differently to your average mum or dad driver.

Still, I hope they fix the underlying issue, which is not the ESP, but the centre of gravity for the car.

[coolieman1220]

This sort of thing on Toyota Stability programs isn't particularly new or shocking, But it does say a lot about a tester who pushes the car that far.

Back in 2008 Wheels (A reputed Australian automotive magazine) managed to roll a Toyota Kluger (Highlander) While performing a High-Speed Lane Change. At first they considered the ESP to be at fault, locking up wheels where unnecessary and causing the rollover.

Then they realised they were pushing the car beyond the normal usage limits - at speeds that were unsafe for nearly any car, let alone a top heavy SUV.

I've seen the video of this incident and while I agree it does look like a fairly nasty habit for a large SUV to have, They were coming in hard and fast into that turn.

I get why they test these things to find the limits of adhesion, but Test drivers drive very differently to your average mum or dad driver.

Still, I hope they fix the underlying issue, which is not the ESP, but the centre of gravity for the car.

Toyota doesn't have very good electronics to begin with! How can they improve them? Our Lexus RX350 is funny, it beeps at you when the traction control comes on. It's very intrusive too and with the beeping it makes you feel like something is going totally wrong when all thats happening is your rear is sliding a little.

personally i feel like the media is out to get toyota....
they say they're happy that they addressed this problem quickly as opposed to their other ones.
i think the media is hungry to see toyota fail.

[RacingManiac]

Beeping I think is normal, and hard intrusion is normal(apparently), since the GX case in particular is that its not intruding hard enough to correct the slide.

I think the car itself is probably doing as expected, and I kinda agree with CR that its more of a ESP calibration side of things. GX is a 4-Runner based SUV, truck platform with real off-road capability, as a result, high ground clearance is a design choice and CG height is a result of it. Lift-off oversteer is probably the order of things with that design. But if CR does the same test for all the cars and this ends up being the worse off, then I suppose it has merit for the do-not-buy rating.

[cargirl1990]

Everyone said what I was going to say. Oh well.

[Matra et Alpine]

Coolie, I'd suggest your response is evidence why Americans shouldn't be allowed fast cars

You shodul NOT be driving it so that the traction control comes on.

When it beeps, you ARE doing something totally wrong on public roads.
Your rear "sliding a little" is a DANGEROUS situation and shold NOT be done where others are put at risk by the drivers bad driving.

THE most important fast driver skill is knowing when NOT to drive fast

Lawyers and public seem out to destroy car companies the way they destroyed drugs.
You'll soon hear about a car, get all it's specs, WANT IT DESPERATELY, but wont' get released until 10 years of testing to ensure the lawyers can't sue.

US public shold decide NOW if they want cars to go that way.
It's bad enough for you guys that Ford et al woudl give you 2 year old European designs. At this rate it will be 10 year old. Imaging driving around in a 2000 Ford Fusion and tell me that's what you want.

It's decisiion time

PS: and please drive more carefully on public roads and with consideration for others.

[Ferrer]

Even when beeping, or completely disconnecting the electronics aids, you've got to get past the limit very much to actually get into trouble in modern cars.

[Matra et Alpine]

The point Ferrer, is that when it's BEEPING then it has detected an out of "normal" wheel rotation condition. So a tyre somewhere has lost traction.

If "person in the street" driver thinks it's OK to drive until it beeps then we are going to end up with MORE safety aids getting added and speed limits put in because they WILL crash/cause accident.

We've a great road up here that has a 90-deg corner in amongst some straights and fast sweepers. The road is now liited to 50 mph and the corner to 30 for EVERYONE.

I'd rather have bad drivers learn at slow speeds that they can't drive fast than have them have computers keep things in line for them .. because no matter HOW good a computer is it can't stop the inevitable.

I've sat at 240kph on an autobahn 30 feet behind the car in front IN RAIN and the driver actually say it's safe because he has abs Took all of 5 minutes to explain simple physics to him to get him to back off !! Hate to think what he does now with stability control

[Ferrer]

The point Ferrer, is that when it's BEEPING then it has detected an out of "normal" wheel rotation condition. So a tyre somewhere has lost traction.

If "person in the street" driver thinks it's OK to drive until it beeps then we are going to end up with MORE safety aids getting added and speed limits put in because they WILL crash/cause accident.

We've a great road up here that has a 90-deg corner in amongst some straights and fast sweepers. The road is now liited to 50 mph and the corner to 30 for EVERYONE.

I'd rather have bad drivers learn at slow speeds that they can't drive fast than have them have computers keep things in line for them .. because no matter HOW good a computer is it can't stop the inevitable.

I've sat at 240kph on an autobahn 30 feet behind the car in front IN RAIN and the driver actually say it's safe because he has abs Took all of 5 minutes to explain simple physics to him to get him to back off !! Hate to think what he does now with stability control

Certainly I agree with all of this. And furthermore it's not only putting yourself in danger but others too. And that ultimately is what matters most.

But, let's assume that we here are sensible petrolhead drivers that while fast drivers usually know how to operate a car. I know it's a big assumption, but bear with me for a second.

Sometimes when driving briskly traction control and stability programmes can be overtly catious and zealous and activate themselves even when you really aren't at the limit of grip. I've driven the 1er over the same bit of road at roughly the same with the electronics on and off. When they were on, they were constantly on, the light on the dash flashing very often. When they were off, though the car didn't move an inch. No oversteer or understeer.

Of course it depends on the car, for instance in the Mini they let you go quite a lot further before they start acting. Also this doesn't mean I'm against them. As long as you can disconnect them they are fine for everyday driving.

Also all of the above applies to cars, not SUVs, off roaders or trucks.

[RacingManiac]

Try driving on a snow cover highway with cross wind....its not unusual for the back to break loose(on a FWD car!) on a gust of wind at 60-70kph on a dead straight road. Now my car has no driving aids other than ABS, so I am doing the work keeping the car on the road, but ESP has its merit in those condition I'd think....

[Ferrer]

Yes as I said for everyday driving and also special conditions all the help you can get is welcomed.

[Matra et Alpine]

RM ... driving SLOWER has even higher merit

Ferrer, good point, stability control is usually set up for tarmac.
Rougher roads are going to cause the tyres to break traction more often and have the computer try to compensate. If course, for SAFETY, you should drive slower.
For example, your braking distance will be a lot LOT further on that surface

The RX-8 stability control is an example of what "over confidence" can lead less experienced drivers to do. With the tight LSD the car will often trigger the traction control when taking away at T-junctions. We ALWAYS tell owners to leave it on. THose who switch it off "too early" usually end up in a ditch, or facing on-coming traffic with a munch scream look SHould we complain that it triggers on so many occasions ? OR be thankful there are less wrecked RX-8s in the hands of normal drivers

The only real complaint we've had with 8s is in snow. The traction control and the stability control work against each other making it impossible to drive on ANY slope

[RacingManiac]

It is already slower, the highway speed limit is 100kph...at the same time we are being passed by fully loaded semi going 120....The only "safe" speed at that condition is 0, and park for 15 mins and you'll need shovel to dig the car out.

Then again most UKer would have no idea anyway, my friend in UK for work says this year's snow storm pretty much crippled the country....welcome to our world...lol

[Kitdy]

It is already slower, the highway speed limit is 100kph...at the same time we are being passed by fully loaded semi going 120....The only "safe" speed at that condition is 0, and park for 15 mins and you'll need shovel to dig the car out.

Then again most UKer would have no idea anyway, my friend in UK for work says this year's snow storm pretty much crippled the country....welcome to our world...lol

How does snow clearing in Michigan compare with the GTA? Are you in Detroit or one of the suburbs?

[RacingManiac]

I am in Rochester. But I get the worse time usually driving back and forth between MI and Toronto.

Snow plowing here isn't bad, but it differs from city to city....