The Stability Control Debate

[Matra et Alpine]

^^^ QFT
From the age of about 13 my brother took me out into car parks when it snowed and let me "learn" road handling.

[Ferrer]

Driving fast has NOTHING to do with the speed limit.

If I see a bunch of kids running along the side of a motorway I don't keep caning past them at 70 6 feet away

So then if I come into an area with wild animals around then first, the driver increases their attention on the road all the way out to the horizon, at the peripheral activities and locations. WHich are likely to have a risk - in the case you cite of an animal running out. WHen the risk is high ebnough then SLOW DOWN.

THe only accident "unforeseen and impossible to anticipate" is a bolt of lightning from God and a part falling off an overhead plane. ALL the rest have a level of anticipation you can make wrt the surrroundings.

WHat I am talking about is anticiaption of the RISK and the actions SENSIBLE to take given that. So for example in some states the roads are through heavily populated (animals) woodland and very little gap from trees to road. It's not viable to drive so slowly and espsecially when the RISK is high but the CHANCE is low - eg middle of day, animals less likely to be about. In Scotland, it's dusk/dawn when you will encounter a deer or rabbit. On open country roads, most sheep if 6+ feet from side of the road will NOT go toward it, BUT if any of those are YOUNG sheep then VERY high chance of one running across. So tere the RISK and the CHANCE are higha nd warrants driving a lot slower. IN some places a walking pace.

THe "safety" mindset of the buying public tends to ignore that the most imoprtant safety device are our eyes, ears and brains. So then we end up tryign to make CARS be safe because we forget to be.


Totally agree on your last point and in fact when I was learning to drive my dad was VERY CLEAR. If an animal runs out in front of you then DO NOT SWERVE. Hit it and we'll repair the car later.

I personally think that even the most careful of drivers can find themselves in unexepcted and dangerous situation. I agree that electronic controls shouldn't be a substitute for common sense, I mean they can't change the laws of physics, but if they can help you in anyway during a dangerous situation I would say they are welcomed.

Driving like an idiot and ESP helping you eventually are two very different thing in my opinion.

[VOGUE_MAN]

I think all safety devices are good, however I also think you should have the option to turn the systems off - not just mostly off Mercedes-Benz - should you want to go to a racetrack of go off road if that was what your vehicle was intended for.
I feel problems arise when people start to rely on these systems to get them out of trouble instead of just treating them as an absolute last resort. The other issue is that these systems are aides, they can't defy the laws of physics. I used to live in the outback and while everyone who lives there knows you never swerve to miss anything (kangaroo, sheep, wombat, dingo etc) for four years I watched an endless line of tourist driven four wheel drives be carried into town on the back of trucks as they'd been rolled by their owners to miss hitting one of the animals listed above. And more often than not these were retirees spending their savings on Range Rovers, Q7s, LX570s, X5s etc. Cars that I feel would have impeccable safety systems but yet are too tall and heavy to cope with a fast, drastic change of direction.
In short, I think safety systems should be standard where possible but driving to suit the conditions is still the most valuable tool when trying to avoid a serious accident from occurring.

[jediali]

Totally agree on your last point and in fact when I was learning to drive my dad was VERY CLEAR. If an animal runs out in front of you then DO NOT SWERVE. Hit it and we'll repair the car later.

Considering many accidents come from people trying to avoid animals (rabbits, hedgehogs, etc etc) I think this is really good advice. In fact after my run in with a suicidal deer (it choose to change direction and jump back in front of my car ) I would just slow to a crawl until its out of sight if you get the chance. This is specific of course.

Many instances you dont see the deer until the last minute. Looking ahead for potholes, deep puddles, mud on road etc and planning your speed and postioning is common sense IMO.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Common sense would dictate keeping an eye further up the road and adjusting your driving accordingly.

Of course, common sense is plainly not why people invest in ESP systems.

[RacingManiac]

So then if I come into an area with wild animals around then first, the driver increases their attention on the road all the way out to the horizon, at the peripheral activities and locations. WHich are likely to have a risk - in the case you cite of an animal running out. WHen the risk is high ebnough then SLOW DOWN.

While I agree in concept, I've seen weirder things happen on the road around here. Michigan has pretty high deer population(which results in as much as 370k people migrating north to hunt at the beginning of the hunting season...370k with guns...). Where I work is in a mostly populated(human), not necessarily wooded(industrial/business zoned) city, where highway snakes through city center. I've seen deer on the road side here, not at all where you would expect, in the middle of the day running down the road. So common sense in some time does not necessarily covers the unforeseen....Recently there were an article on a Toronto paper in this subject and the columnist holds very much the same view as you(Jim Kenzie), I do believe 95% of the accidents are NOT accidents, but there are definitely instance where a driver can do all the right thing and can still find themselves in peril and ESP might just bail them out.

[Matra et Alpine]

On the best roads in Scotland there are no fences and wild deer and domesticated sheep abound. Worst buggars over here are the bloody grouse , they are compeltely random. I've even watched one hold back twice to run across the road while our convoy of bikes passed - at reduced speed - and on the third person went for it and got smacked by his knee.

[charged]

Kangaroos are the same here, they may be on the side of the road and instead of hoping off in the opposite direction they hop into the roadway.ESP can be good for unforeseen hazards but most times a little bit of common sense works just as well in limiting a serious vehicle stability situation

[coolieman1220]

one time driving back from florida. in virginia late at night or early in the morning depending on how you look at it. Heavy fog, couldn't really see much. Driving down the highway and i see green eyes next to me. i'm in the middle lane and there are dear next to me in either the left or emergency lane. it was really scary because i could not see them until i was literally passing them. It was very scary luckily they weren't in my way. they can do lots of damage to your vehicle at any speed.

[Matra et Alpine]

Heavy fog

How often were you overtaken by drivers with EPS, ABS, SIPPs etc etc all thinking that they were "safe"

[clutch-monkey]

How often were you overtaken by drivers with EPS, ABS, SIPPs etc etc all thinking that they were "safe"

or AWD, for that matter..

[Ferrer]

Four wheel drive is indeed a bit like those electronic aids.

[Lagonda]

one time driving back from florida. in virginia late at night or early in the morning depending on how you look at it. Heavy fog, couldn't really see much. Driving down the highway and i see green eyes next to me. i'm in the middle lane and there are dear next to me in either the left or emergency lane. it was really scary because i could not see them until i was literally passing them. It was very scary luckily they weren't in my way. they can do lots of damage to your vehicle at any speed.

Had the same happen to me when going back to the hotel after visiting Yosemite or Sequoia NP (can't remember which one).
I was driving really slow because I was extremely tired and the road was pitch black. And all of a sudden there was a deer next to the road. Luckily it didn't run in front of the car. There was no way I could've seen it from a distance or anticipated for it (well I was already driving slow and I knew that there were lot's of wild animals that could come out, I started slowing down after meeting a few foxes on the road).
Even at such low speed the damage would be pretty big. That was a pretty scary event.

[Matra et Alpine]

"extremely tired" --- at those times the SAFE driver pulls over and has a sleep.
Know it's sounds preaching .... but, safety really is 99% driver.
We all compromise safety in one way or another for various reasons, but that now has the trend where everyeon EXPECTS safety shoudl be 99% car and 1% driver

[Lagonda]

"extremely tired" --- at those times the SAFE driver pulls over and has a sleep.
Know it's sounds preaching .... but, safety really is 99% driver.
We all compromise safety in one way or another for various reasons, but that now has the trend where everyeon EXPECTS safety shoudl be 99% car and 1% driver

You want me to pull over in the middle of a pitch black forest in the middle of the night with NOTHING around for miles (+ a whining girlfriend)? Let's be realistic.
But I know what you mean.

Point is, even if I were to be completely awake and not tired at all I wouldn't have seen the deer either. So It's not even relevant actually.
My gf who was wide awake didn't see it either.

There are certain things that you can NOT anticipate for. Yes, I know that there are wild animals that can cross the street and I adapted my speed accordingly. And at the speed I was driving, hitting the animal would've probably only resulted in some damage to the car. And maybe, unfortunately, a dead deer.
What it comes down to is: if you want to be really safe, don't get out of your house and pray that it doesn't burn down.

That said, I agree 100% that safety is 99% driver.