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Thread: Audi plans innovative new options scam

  1. #16
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    so when reducing the overall production costs, they are asking the clients at the same time to pay more for the extras in the shape of "app" or whatever these things are called, instead of reducing the overall selling price.
    Reminds me of the Cadillac V16 of some years ago where you could shut off one of the cylinderbanks. GM (if they will ever produce it) can make fortune by an selling an app opening up the full engine....the same story for twin turbo engines etc etc...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  2. #17
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    ^^ pretty much Pieter
    Of course they'll argue their not REDUCING the cost but managing it better for all involved and saving the planet
    Clients already "paid more" for the heated seat anyway
    and when has a manufacturer passed on production savings ? More $$$ to the bottom line usually
    As already noted, te IT industry did this for decades.
    I remember the furore when British Steel paid for an upgrade to the ICL2904 to double it's performance -- expected a new processor card ..... the engineer came in and cut a link and walked out leaving a 20,000 invoice ( back in 1978 that was a LOT of cash for a simple cut --- and the lesson that in future they need to a) don't tell customer what they're doing and b) Stay for enough time to jsutify the high bill )
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    ehm, in your opinion, is it possible to ruin what essential already is a ruin?
    Too much sarcasm in just one post?

    Peter, as I see it, of course it makes perfect sense economically. Economies of scale, potentially increased revenue (maybe you can't afford the option when buying the car, but you can later on), simpler production process, etc. But then again this is ultimatecarpage.com, not ultimateeconomistpage.com, isn't it?
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  4. #19
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    ^^^^ Would you rather have ultimatecarswecantaffordtobuildanymorepage.com ??
    oh wait, it's AUDI .... course you would

    Seriously though, car makers have to make profit if they want to stay making cars.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  5. #20
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    I nominate Matra for the Rebuttal of the Year award.

  6. #21
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    ^^^^^^^^ I thank you
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    ^^^^ Would you rather have ultimatecarswecantaffordtobuildanymorepage.com ??
    oh wait, it's AUDI .... course you would

    Seriously though, car makers have to make profit if they want to stay making cars.
    I don't mind them making a profit, I just prefer that they do so without double charging me, or forcing me to buy a car with all kinds of added weight and complexity that I don't want.
    Big cities suck

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  8. #23
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    Pretty smart idea IMHO (I agree with Matra on the production cost thing). Talking about extra added weight is useless, the cars they make (and most manufacturers these days) are already really heavy. It won't actually make a difference in real world performance anyway.
    I mean, it's not Lotus we're talking about here...

    But...If it's software, it'll get hacked. Free full option cars for everybody!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagonda View Post
    Pretty smart idea IMHO
    Quote Originally Posted by Lagonda View Post
    But...If it's software, it'll get hacked. Free full option cars for everybody!
    Thus calling into question how smart the idea actually is.

  10. #25
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    it won't get hacked
    AND if it does then each time it comes in for services it will get reset and the customer charged.

    Hacking is not so easy now as long as there is a semi-regular contact with origin.
    My TV cable box is now dead as my cable provider has upped the encryption and nobody can crack it - as secure as Sky's

    AND you'll find excess charges if the control system detects an intrusion at a service.

    So spend $50 to turn on the heated seat option or face the possibility of a $500 additional service cost ?

    What i think is interesting is then how long it will take to move to a pay-as-you-use service. After all in the UK you don't really need heated seats in summer and definately do in winter ! Or how about fog lights that cost you 5c every time you use them. The charges either go real time ( all cars are going WiFi and GPRS enabled ) or additional line itme at service time.

    Now THAT appeals to me. THEN thos d*ckheads who drive aroudn all the time with their fog lights on coz it's "cool" you can laugh at even louder
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagonda View Post
    But...If it's software, it'll get hacked. Free full option cars for everybody!
    Except the cost of the hardware was already included in the price of the car. They are really just asking you to pay 'more' for the privilege of using the hardware.

    Someone should be well within theirs rights to hack or hardhack any equipment in their car that they paid for. The reality is that most people would rather save themselves the trouble and just pay to have it enabled.
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

  12. #27
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    NO alastor, by no stretch of any law are you "entitled" to something that was a chargable option unles you pay for it.

    "Possession is 9 tenths of the law" is a myth
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    it won't get hacked
    AND if it does then each time it comes in for services it will get reset and the customer charged.
    I think it depends on what the option is. Heated seats at the most basic level just requires getting power to the heating elements. So certainly one could wire directly the heating elements with a simple switch. Looks like shit but if $3 gets you a $3,000 dollar upgrade, I am sure someone will try it.

    Trying to get an entirely electronic or software based option would be a lot more difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    My TV cable box is now dead as my cable provider has upped the encryption and nobody can crack it - as secure as Sky's

    AND you'll find excess charges if the control system detects an intrusion at a service.
    But with cable TV you are using your cable box to connect to a service, assuming you actually 'own' the box. Since you are connecting to a service you have to agree to the Terms Of Service in the contract which is free to state the configuration of the cable box.

    I am not buying a content service when I buy a car. I own the entire car and every part in it, and I can do whatever I want with it. At best they could refuse warranty or maybe as you said try to impose a additional service fee (I could always refuse to pay it).

    Not to mention once these cars get out on the used market without warranties and one doesn't have to use a Audi service center it seems like there should be little if anything Audi could do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    NO alastor, by no stretch of any law are you "entitled" to something that was a chargable option unles you pay for it.

    "Possession is 9 tenths of the law" is a myth
    If the car seats have heating elements in them and I paid for the car then I paid for the heating elements. How do you figure I don't own them?
    "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I think it depends on what the option is. Heated seats at the most basic level just requires getting power to the heating elements.
    Not in modern cars.
    The heating element will have a CAN address and ODB ( or extension ) protocol command for control and monitoring. Chekc otu fog lights on new Minis. Yes you can hook it up but the switch now has to be seperate too. So you've fecked up a perfectly good looking and easy to use car for a few bucks ?
    But with cable TV you are using your cable box to connect to a service, assuming you actually 'own' the box. Since you are connecting to a service you have to agree to the Terms Of Service in the contract which is free to state the configuration of the cable box.
    Chekc out your next car purchase and service agreemetn.
    You'll find you are NOT covered if you make changes or modification and in soem countries you are not ALLOWED to make some types of modifications.
    LOGICALLY, Alastor, you have a valid case to make, but this is business and legal contracts -- both which have very little to do with logic
    I am not buying a content service when I buy a car. I own the entire car and every part in it, and I can do whatever I want with it. At best they could refuse warranty or maybe as you said try to impose a additional service fee (I could always refuse to pay it).
    NO. For example the code inside the ECU is patented, many parts of the car design are copyright. You have been given a "right to use" as intended. NOT carte-blanche to do with as you wish.
    Not to mention once these cars get out on the used market without warranties and one doesn't have to use a Audi service center it seems like there should be little if anything Audi could do.
    Once you're out of warranty then the manufacturer has little care or concern with you making modifications. They are not longer responsible and more importantly by then they've made the profit they required to make on the vehicle "life".
    If the car seats have heating elements in them and I paid for the car then I paid for the heating elements. How do you figure I don't own them?
    First off, if the contract says you have not purchased them then you do NOT own them. A car is not a single item. If you look closely you will find a order from whcih they create a "build sheet" for a model. The things you paid for you own. If it says you did not purchase the heating element and control then you do NOT have a right to use. Just because something is "ther" does NOT imply amy right to use and in the case they woudl offer a pay-as-you-go model then the contract will make that clear.
    Again, you're applying far to simple a logic to the business model and one that won't hold up

    MUCH simpler case ... you bought your computer ... and yet you WILL be arrested and jailed if you sell that computer to a nation state or its representative that is on the restricted access to technologies list So you "own" it, but you can't use it any way you like or want. Equally in your PC the chip has either Intel or AMD micro-code inside the CPU. You bought it, you use it daily BUT you have NO RIGHTS to it to make copies, or modify it or even publish it.

    THem's the realities ...... and I've fought patents and legal cases on both sides of the arguments - won some, lost some So, I've tried bending the rules too ... AND used logic to try to jsutify my case We lost
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  15. #30
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    Pre-installing hardware at the factory would also help Audi’s production system become more flexible. Currently the company takes 12 weeks to build a car to order. In future the factory could make stock cars that have their exact specifications tweaked via software downloads by the dealer at the point of sale.
    Yep, as said .. should have googled first, huh. Save me all that typing and brain activity
    Audi: 'The future is apps' - Autocar.co.uk
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

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