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Thread: Chevy Volt priced at $41,000 before credit.

  1. #16
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but it'll also be the first to use Li-Ion Battery? Prius still uses Ni-MH cell, which is still cheaper and less energy dense. Most of the powertrain component is exclusive to this car, so nothing to spread out the cost with, I am sure the main reason for Toyota being able to drive the cost down now is that the essential bits of hybrid powertrain is now used in many different cars so the volume is much higher...
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    What bothers me about this whole green/electric car shit is that a diesel often would perform near enough as well for what I imagine would be cheaper.

    That doesn't matter though - hybrids are cool amongst the liberal elite.

    NSX, the Insight is a piece of shit, just like all other newly released (automotive) Hondas.
    are you in favour of a diesel electric propulsion unit for the Volt, in stead of the gas combo that they will be using?
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  3. #18
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    diesel generator might make more sense in general.....though, not sure if you have to use a TDI type of setup the plumbing and upkeep might be more complicated than a regular gas engine....

    Normally aspirated diesel maynot yield the full benefit and efficiency of the design...
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  4. #19
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    During my thesis on hybrid systems, I documented a few problems diesel hybrid have.
    Mainly heavier, a larger ICE (because of the turbocharger mainly, but also the ICE itself is larger), and about 3.000 € more expensive as of now. Also, the fuel saving wasn't that much improved, because on cars like the Volt it is just a generator, so it doesn't suffer from continuous change of load.
    If I was to buy such a car, I may be interested, perhaps not in the first run to avoid some minor issues, but I'd definitely be looking for it.
    Of course I'm not interested in this type of car, but that's because I'm a stupid gearhead living in the boring Modena.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    are you in favour of a diesel electric propulsion unit for the Volt, in stead of the gas combo that they will be using?
    Well, as it has just been mentioned, that solution has a few problems with it.

    I figure it could probably be made to work though - and made to work well.

    The problem here of course is that diesels aren't well regarded, and the extra cost of a diesel on top of the extra cost of a hybrid may be too much for people to take.

    Still, it is a potential future very low emissions powertrain - maybe for use when electric cars have quite good (ie, better than today) range, and the diesel engine is used to charge the electric engine when the charge runs out.

  6. #21
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    Apparently it has to run on premium fuel, which is causing the expected whining from people who were never going to buy it in the first place. Presumably it's because the efficiency gains are worth it, else they wouldn't bother.

    Edit: Here's the article.
    Last edited by pimento; 07-28-2010 at 08:52 PM.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
    Of course I'm not interested in this type of car, but that's because I'm a stupid gearhead living in the boring Modena.
    It must be difficult to concentrate on this type of car when you hear operatic V8s and V12s all day long...
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
    During my thesis on hybrid systems, I documented a few problems diesel hybrid have.
    Mainly heavier, a larger ICE (because of the turbocharger mainly, but also the ICE itself is larger), and about 3.000 € more expensive as of now. Also, the fuel saving wasn't that much improved, because on cars like the Volt it is just a generator, so it doesn't suffer from continuous change of load.
    If I was to buy such a car, I may be interested, perhaps not in the first run to avoid some minor issues, but I'd definitely be looking for it.
    Of course I'm not interested in this type of car, but that's because I'm a stupid gearhead living in the boring Modena.
    Thank you, one question though, does it necessarily have to be turbocharged? I remember the Volkswagen SDI engines came up with very good fuel economy figures, but they were simply not powerful enough for modern requirements and increased car weights. 80 BHP from an 2000 cc diesel engine, non turboed, should however be easily possible. Any figures on the specific fuel consumption of both diesel and petrol engines under such stationary conditions? What revs would they be running at?

    I guess that adding a turbo will also help to reduce the noise a little.

    Why the Volt engine should run on premium is a mystery to me.
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  9. #24
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    What's the weight penalty in using a diesel generator? Obviously when you're trying to eke out as much distance from the batteries as possible that's going to be another factor that needs considering.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimento View Post
    What's the weight penalty in using a diesel generator? Obviously when you're trying to eke out as much distance from the batteries as possible that's going to be another factor that needs considering.
    they make alloy diesels these days....
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  11. #26
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    And isn't Citroen/Peugeot going the Diesel hybrid way?
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    they make alloy diesels these days....
    Diesel is still heavier though, just because the pressure they run with both in fuel and actual combustion process, the block design is probably beefier because of it...heck with an engine running as a generator you can probably run a turbine too....

    I am not too sure if it has to be turbocharged, but the efficiency gain with out it over a gas engine I don't know will be worth it...

    Whats the spec on the gas motor in the Volt?
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Thank you, one question though, does it necessarily have to be turbocharged? I remember the Volkswagen SDI engines came up with very good fuel economy figures, but they were simply not powerful enough for modern requirements and increased car weights. 80 BHP from an 2000 cc diesel engine, non turboed, should however be easily possible. Any figures on the specific fuel consumption of both diesel and petrol engines under such stationary conditions? What revs would they be running at?

    I guess that adding a turbo will also help to reduce the noise a little.

    Why the Volt engine should run on premium is a mystery to me.
    Unfortunately there aren't official figures for these conditions.
    Having a turbocharged diesel generator would be quite necessary for a few reasons.
    First of all, we now have only turbocharged diesels engines, and all injection systems, components, exhaust lines and particulate's filters are designed according to what a turocharged diesel can or cannot do.
    Removing the turbo would require quite some design work, and higher costs.
    Talking about gainings, well the turbo surely improves efficiency, and the gain would still be higher than the loss due to the heavier and larger drivetrain. On the other hand for this level of output (around 100 kW), they should use a small displacement diesel engine, like say the 1.3 liters from Fiat. This engines are not particularly frugal compared to their performance, are still relatively heavy and quite noisy too (implying also vibrations).

    That would be the same with a petrol engine, but the level of power made it possible to get away with an already existent and cheap naturally aspirated engine. Using a turbocharged version would have been even better, but they couldn't ask an higher price for a better result.
    Now they are selling this car for 40.000 $, regardless of its specific data. A better product would have probably been priced at the same figure, or people would have just ignored it. Now they can rely on a future update, basically for free while they use this naturally aspirated engine as a first step.
    There wasn't a chance to do the same with a diesel ICE.

    Talking about its operating revs, on top of my head preproduction prototypes have their engines tuned to work between 1.400 and 4.000 rpm. Production models should work between 1.400 and 3.000 rpm at worst.
    The reason why they are not running at constant speed is because the system is developed to respond to its own requests, and not to what the driver is asking (as in the Fisker Karma). The main target is maximizing the load, so to improve efficiency. That required to recalibrate the engine so to lower the speed at which the efficiency was best, of course reaching a lower overall power.
    On a diesel engine, given the smaller range of revs, it would be more difficult to have the engine running at lower speeds while having a "good" efficiency, also because the aforementioned turbo needs high pressures and temperatures to work properly and give decent results. Without the turbo it would be even harder to have a good efficiency at low speeds because of the difficulty on vaporizing the fuel.
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  14. #29
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    Leon,
    Do you think thermal issues come into play as well? The Volt motor will shut down frequently while in hybrid mode. That means we have to worry about keeping things at temperature or we'll see emissions issues. Do diesels come up to temperature as fast as a gas motor? What would be required to keep the diesel warm and would that negatively impact things (emissions, wear etc)? Basically does the start stop operating cycle favor a gas vs diesel motor?

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