big engine and nothing else

[MKielbasa]

Originally posted by PyroManiac
I see what you're saying, but I question the "prestige of DOHC," sure, it may be used in Formula 1, but then again its also used in "dime-a-dozen" econo cars. Thats not to say Pushrods are better though, they've been used in "dime-a-dozen" econo cars too.

Electromagnetic valves are where its at (or where it will be).

Actually I believe F1 cars already use the electomagnetic (or was it hyrdaulic) valve set up. They no longer have cams.

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by guyt_x
please relax

this is a forum where people disuss cars...

all we do is argue about cars, it is juvinile but its fun.

so have a beer and relax henk4

discuss?? you make a thread devoted to your baseless uneducated dribble, and try to pass it off as fact, and then we blow your head of with REAL facts, theres no discussion going on here.

i find it funny that your sig says "can you handle the truth?" when you're obviously the one who cant

[Nildo]

Guyt-x if you really want to say why you prefer another type of motor vehicle then do as Tahoeman and Henk suggest. Research your facts, then express your opinion like an adult.

I don't especially like amerian cars. Some are good, but there are better cars out there. Many people who argue the 'HP/L means nothing' line of thought dont realise that you can have both reasonable torque (hence good drivablility) and high power/litre. A good example of this is the British firm TVR which produces some of Europes fastest cars. Rather than produce small capacity highly boosted motors, or big, lazy low revving V8 muscle, TVR produces medium sized (about 270 cubic inches or 4.5 litre) naturally aspirated engines, with all the VVT, multi cams, valves etc.

The result is cars that have generally over 100 hp/l, low weight and strong torque, providing excellent performance right through the rev range. Why argue for high torque at the expense of HP, and why argue for HP at the expense of drivability? You CAN have both with proper engineering!

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by Nildo
Guyt-x if you really want to say why you prefer another type of motor vehicle then do as Tahoeman and Henk suggest. Research your facts, then express your opinion like an adult.

I don't especially like amerian cars. Some are good, but there are better cars out there. Many people who argue the 'HP/L means nothing' line of thought dont realise that you can have both reasonable torque (hence good drivablility) and high power/litre. A good example of this is the British firm TVR which produces some of Europes fastest cars. Rather than produce small capacity highly boosted motors, or big, lazy low revving V8 muscle, TVR produces medium sized (about 270 cubic inches or 4.5 litre) naturally aspirated engines, with all the VVT, multi cams, valves etc.

The result is cars that have generally over 100 hp/l, low weight and strong torque, providing excellent performance right through the rev range. Why argue for high torque at the expense of HP, and why argue for HP at the expense of drivability? You CAN have both with proper engineering!

you still have to get around the fact that hp/l is a completely worthless stat though. it doesnt say anything about anything. it has no bearing on what kind of gas mileage a car gets, it has no bearing on how much the engine weighs. why do japanese companies focus so hard on making high hp/l cars?? its not because theres some huge advantage to it, its just because they have displacement tax. even though displacement tax is just as stupid as the hp/l stat itself. because it doesnt mean a car will polute less, or use less gasoline

[Nildo]

The displacement tax is probably an outdated left over from the era of leaded petrol and carburettors, when a good deal of economy/polution was directly related to capacity. The japanese government obviously has no idea when it comes to vehicles, as they also still enforce that ridiculous power cap of 276 hp. In five years time the average family sedan will come very close to breaking that limit, hamstringing the jap performance market. Oh well, it's their country.....

Of course you are right (take note guyt-x, you can agree with people who generally have a differing opinion to you!) hp/l is a pretty useless stat by itself. When combined with other good statistics it can become a positive. Not in the honda s2000's case though. Look at it like this, a good, well built single cam motor that has high compression, right cams etc can produce around 55 kw per litre. Doesn't mean much. But if the Viper was built not with high tech but just a few serious development dollars thrown it's way it could produce that figure. In that case instead of 335 kw it would have well over 400. When the basics are in place power per litre can matter.

I realise that example is over simplifying the issue, but do you get the basic point? Please?

[MKielbasa]

Originally posted by Nildo
The japanese government obviously has no idea when it comes to vehicles, as they also still enforce that ridiculous power cap of 276 hp. In five years time the average family sedan will come very close to breaking that limit, hamstringing the jap performance market. Oh well, it's their country.....

First off i'd like to say that the "276 hp cap" everyone talks about is a myth. It is not law in Japan. It is self imposed by the manufacturers. They all aggreed on it. They have now aggreed to break that cap.

Secondly, if they really did have a 275hp cap, the logical thing to do would be to increase displacement to up the torque while keeping horse power at 275HP. This would prove for faster cars while staying within the cap. The japs have just chosen to do their stuff smaller and "more efficient"

[BPx]

Originally posted by henk4
This is getting interesting. First, Nildo thanks for the historic update, which, if correct, shows that (D)OHC engines came slightly later than OHV engines. I new about the Peugeot, so I was wondering what OHC engine came prior to that. Wasn't it also the first 4 valve head?

Just a small point, everyone engine made today (aside from some stuff for lawnmowers and whatever else) is "OHV". OHV does not signify pushrod (even though some magazines may think it does), it simply means overhead valves. Early on in the automotive industry, some cars did not have overhead valves, and when they came around car performance really increased.
As for DOHC, apparently only in the automotive industry are technological advances where the device becomes larger, more complex, and more expensive. Everyone else is trying to make things smaller, easier to work with, and cheaper.

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by Nildo
The displacement tax is probably an outdated left over from the era of leaded petrol and carburettors, when a good deal of economy/polution was directly related to capacity. The japanese government obviously has no idea when it comes to vehicles, as they also still enforce that ridiculous power cap of 276 hp. In five years time the average family sedan will come very close to breaking that limit, hamstringing the jap performance market. Oh well, it's their country.....

Of course you are right (take note guyt-x, you can agree with people who generally have a differing opinion to you!) hp/l is a pretty useless stat by itself. When combined with other good statistics it can become a positive. Not in the honda s2000's case though. Look at it like this, a good, well built single cam motor that has high compression, right cams etc can produce around 55 kw per litre. Doesn't mean much. But if the Viper was built not with high tech but just a few serious development dollars thrown it's way it could produce that figure. In that case instead of 335 kw it would have well over 400. When the basics are in place power per litre can matter.

I realise that example is over simplifying the issue, but do you get the basic point? Please?

i see what you're saying, but even in that case, hp/l is more a matter of "hey look what they did with the displacement they were given, thats cool" , but also with a few more development dollars thrown in they could have tuned a hemi to 500/500 and thrown it in there. even still what does hp/l have to do with it? it doesnt even give a good indication of what kind of stress the engine can take, ie, there are skylines putting out 1000+ hp, thats like 250 hp/l but could you take a chevy 3.8 liter and get 1000 hp from it?? ive yet to see it done. hp/l really is worthless, theres not a single instance where it matters, even in your example. the hp/l doesnt really matter.

oh and also, that power cap you're talking about isnt government enforced, its just a gentlements agreement between the car companies, thats why the supra tt had 320 hp

[guyt_x]

I would just like to see the americans produce a smaller engined car to competer against the jap cars.

I know because they have cheap fuel there no reall need to.

but subaru, mitsubishi have impressed buyers due to there power out put from small engines.

I do like the viper its not so bad, but it doesnt take a rocket scintist to get power out of a big engine.

but then again why bother america is self contained and doesnt compete in world motor sport, so there is no need to build competitive cars, they just need to keep there people happy.

[Guibo]

No, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get horsepower out of a large engine. It takes a crapload of money and automotive engineering know-how (are you accusing Lamborghini of lacking engineering prowess?). From the beginning, the Viper was never a priority project. It struggled just to get the green light at its inception in the late '80s.

What kind of development dollars are we talking about? Ferrari had a whole load of development dollars thrown at the Enzo (some of it from parent company FIAT even?), and what's the result? It produces 12 *fewer* hp/l than the S2000, a car that debuted some 3 years ago. How does that happen? Is Ferrari not up to snuff technologically with the Honda boys? Ferrari *can't* beat the S2000's hp/l? Or was it simply a matter of saying "Huh. In the grand scheme of things, 650 hp is enough. 485 lb/ft is enough. What compelling reason do we have to go match what Honda has done?"
I have no doubt Ferrari have the know-how to exceed 120 hp/l with a 6.0-liter engine. Just as Honda have the know-how to exceed 120 hp/l with its own motorcycle engines. (A mid-80's CBR600 makes 138 hp/l, without VVT and all the while breathing through carbs, LOL.) There's always the balance to strike between output and reliability.

Something to think about: the cost to replace the Enzo engine is $200K. Cost to replace the engine in a Viper: $13K, parts & labor (@ $95/hr) . And by domestic American car standards, this is considered pretty pricey. For reference, the cost to rebuild a Ferrari 308 GTB/GTB QV is $12-15K, parts & labor (@ 80/hr).

[MKielbasa]

Originally posted by Tahoeman
ie, there are skylines putting out 1000+ hp, thats like 250 hp/l but could you take a chevy 3.8 liter and get 1000 hp from it?? ive yet to see it done.

Go do a search for the Buick GN turbo and GNX. Also the Trans Am Turbo. They were out late 80's early 90's IIRC. 3.8L Turbo and they often are seen with extremely high 900+ horsepower numbers.

[PyroManiac]

Originally posted by MKielbasa
Actually I believe F1 cars already use the electomagnetic (or was it hyrdaulic) valve set up. They no longer have cams.

I believe they're using electromagnetic. Lotus says they have an electrohydraulic system that is production-ready, they're just waiting for a buyer.

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by guyt_x
I would just like to see the americans produce a smaller engined car to competer against the jap cars.

I know because they have cheap fuel there no reall need to.

but subaru, mitsubishi have impressed buyers due to there power out put from small engines.

I do like the viper its not so bad, but it doesnt take a rocket scintist to get power out of a big engine.

but then again why bother america is self contained and doesnt compete in world motor sport, so there is no need to build competitive cars, they just need to keep there people happy.

dude you missed half the thread, the only american vehicles that get noticeably worse gas mileage than japanese cars are SUV's, and the only other reason any other car might get worse, is just because we make cars big enough so that people can actually FIT in them. japan making small engines has nothing to do with fuel consumption, it has to do with displacement tax. and even still, do you see japan making smaller engines every year?? wouldnt advances intechnology make you think theyd get more and more power out of smaller and smaller engines?? no they're slowly making larger engines, thats why all the new civics have 1.7 liters instead of 1.6, its why the VQ30, turned into the VQ35, thats why the NSX went from 3.0 to 3.2 liters, displacement has very little to do with fuel consumption, thats why a 5.7 liter 405 hp 3000 lb vette z06 gets 4 mpg BETTER on the highway than the s2000, pull your head out of your ass already, my God. you're right those car companies may sell a small percentage of cars to people like you who are impressed by them getting more power out of a smaller engine (its actually not rocket sience like you might think), but its just because those people are idiots and dont realize that hp/l has jackshit to do with anything.

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by MKielbasa
Go do a search for the Buick GN turbo and GNX. Also the Trans Am Turbo. They were out late 80's early 90's IIRC. 3.8L Turbo and they often are seen with extremely high 900+ horsepower numbers.

ahh good point, didnt think about that, i was mainly thinking about the newer gen of the 3.8.

[Nildo]

Actually the japanese power cap isn't exactly just a gent's agreement as commonly thought. The other side to this agreement is that any production car making over 280 powerstroke must have each and every vehicle emmissions tested before sale, an expense and inconvenience that jap manufacturers don't want to bother with. The supra in japan was still claimed at 280 ps....toyota engineers simply lied. As do Nissans engineers and mitsubishi's. There is only so far they can pretend though, which is why we have yet to see much over 320 ps.

The thing about hp/l does not ALWAYS matter. It does matter only when other criteria are already met. If it didn't matter at all then japan wouldn't even have a motor industry. However it is just one statistic, and is far too often used by marketers and besotted fans as some kind of bastion for high performance. Its not the be all or end all.

In a previous thread no one responded to me when I mentioned the ferrari 575 and its power of 515 hp. Compared to the almost equal LS series engines with about 405 at best (we have a version with only 314). Power per litre in one is clearly greater than in the other. What does everyone think? Remember, I'm comparing motors, not the cars, so please don't spout any 4.2-60
or anything.

As for the Enzo/s2000 Ferrari stopped aiming for higher power due to the stress that 660 hp places on components. More power would be essentially useless unless the chassis and ancilliaries were reliably up to the task. Remember that it is a road car, so it was also subject to emissions regulations in about 120 countries or so.