The new Vauxhall VXR8

[ozzycarnut]

yes, i agree that the engine could be replaced in a holden or ford for a fraction of what it would cost to do the same in a merc / audi. the point is though, what would last longer, given the same conditions, same service intervals, driven daily, what would still be purring along in 20 years time as tight as a drum? my money is on an s class mercedes, as these old girls are often seen around where i live happily cruising along after having to put up with 20 and 30 years of shocking brisbane roads and owner abuse. you can see that they have had a torturous existence, but their owners adore them for their faithful service. i'm talking the s class 80's and 90's era dictator mercs. they just seem to keep going and going. then i guess we throw into the equation and ask ourselves would a current commodore or falcon have the dna that would allow it to do the same as the merc and still be providing fault free service to its owner 20 and 30 years down the track? its obviously subjective, and open for debate, but i would say they would be lucky to last 10 years. garbage i hear you say, well let me explain.

when i was about 18 or 19, i was working for a a well known engineering company, who made fantastic quality products that at the time i could not see a rival competitor world wide (yes, it was that good). this was their downfall, their stuff lasted for 20 years, and longer, and hence, they did not make any money on parts and servicing of their equipment as it didnt break down. the company almost went bust, but they recognised that their stuff was lasting too long and they were not making money, so they changed their business strategy, outsourced their manufacturing to china and taiwan, and bob's your uncle, their stuff is back in line with everyone else and they are making money. apply this to just about everything around you, from appliances to furniture, and everything in between. now look back 20 years and remember how well made things were, things just didnt break. for example, i have the last of the sony trinitrons, a 68cm behemoth, sitting in our spare room doing nothing as its been replaced by a dirty great big plasma (which i expect will die within 5 years), the faithful sony has given me approx 10 years of trouble free service, and when i drop it off to my mother in laws place next weekend, i would be very surprised if she does not get another 10 years out of it. now apply this to holden and ford. they made some ok stuff back in the day, i'm talking good quality stuff, ht gts monaros, xyghtho phase 3 falcons, stuff like this that was built tough and was designed to last. unfortunately, now that they have gone the way of just about every other manufacturer in the world, and outsourced alot of their stuff, and quality is compromised. heres an example ... get out to a local car show and see how many old cars are there, i am talking from fj, fx, fc, lc, lj, ht, hk (holden) xw, xy, xt, xb, xc (ford) etc, i will guarantee you that the old stuff outnumbers the new stuff, why? because it lasts, simple. the only new stuff you will see will be some fag who thinks he's hard with an ss comodore who has air brushed it and put some neons on it and now thinks its a show car but he will try and sell it 12 months later as he has realised what a wanker he is ... but anyway, i am getting sidetracked .... my point is, go to a car show, any car show, and look how many vt, vx, vy, vz (holden) ba, bf, fg (ford) of these cars are there, now wait 20 years, and visit a car show and see if those same cars are there, i could guarantee you that they wont be, the old stuff will be there though, xy, xt, xw, xa, xb, xc, (ford) ht, hk, hj, fj, fx, lj, lc, (holden). holden and ford stuff is ultimately designed to fail like just about everything else these days, usually just outside the warranty period, otherwise they arent making money from people repairing or buying cars.

[ozzycarnut]

AHAHAHAHA!! you must be out of your head.

20 year old German cars are to be avoided like the plague, 20 year old Holdens and Fords are bought and driven and cheaply repaired every day.

you just summed up my point, "Holdens and Fords are bought and driven and cheaply repaired every day". with emphasis on the "repaired every day" part.

20 year old german cars .... to be avoided like the plague .... mmm .... considering how well they were made 20 years ago with respect to their competition, i'd say its you thats "out of your head"

i would say also, how many 20 year old german cars have you driven and / or worked on? me? plenty to know that they are quality machines when looked after. leaps and bounds ahead of holden and ford stuff.

[fpv_gtho]

... heres an example ... get out to a local car show and see how many old cars are there, i am talking from fj, fx, fc, lc, lj, ht, hk (holden) xw, xy, xt, xb, xc (ford) etc, i will guarantee you that the old stuff outnumbers the new stuff, why? because it lasts, simple. the only new stuff you will see will be some fag who thinks he's hard with an ss comodore who has air brushed it and put some neons on it and now thinks its a show car but he will try and sell it 12 months later as he has realised what a wanker he is ... but anyway, i am getting sidetracked .... my point is, go to a car show, any car show, and look how many vt, vx, vy, vz (holden) ba, bf, fg (ford) of these cars are there, now wait 20 years, and visit a car show and see if those same cars are there, i could guarantee you that they wont be, the old stuff will be there though, xy, xt, xw, xa, xb, xc, (ford) ht, hk, hj, fj, fx, lj, lc, (holden). holden and ford stuff is ultimately designed to fail like just about everything else these days, usually just outside the warranty period, otherwise they arent making money from people repairing or buying cars.

That is an extremely long bow your drawing. I'm sure if you actually asked those people taking those older cars out to shows they'd tell you the older cars have more soul, more individuality or something like that compared to the new cars. Those older cars built the Australian industry and also have their followers for that.

[Badsight]

i see your rationale, but this is like comparing the tortoise and the hare. the hare being the delicate nimble precise machine and the hare being the sluggish 'will get there in the end' workhorse. whereas i am identifying quality and longevity issues that ford and holden have and also suggesting when compared with german stuff its pretty substandard.

the simple OHV chevy engine is lighter & more reliable than the BMW v10

& BMW's fantastic 5.0 weighs as much as the 5.7 LS1

simple , old tech doesnt equal bad performing , & the small block chevy is not a heavy engine design . for its capacity its a light engine (lighter than the equally tuff modular v8 by ford)

also 90% of your road driving will be under 4000 rpm , so the engine with the most torque will make for the fastest ride . more torque than HP is a good thing for real world road driving


re the VXR - im a big fan of the VE commodore - a really good local effort , the hsv models however have been exercises in boy-ricerfying

[Chernaudi]

Just like how the Ford modular V8 is as big and heavy as the 427 FE big block. And the FE is all cast iron/steel, while the Mod V8 is aluminum.

I'll also bet that the cast iron Ford 5.0/302 Windsor is lighter than the Audi 4.2 all Alu. V8. Granted, that's because cast iron and steel are heavier, but can be cast in thinner sections for more strength. The Mercedes-Benz supercharged 5.6 liter straight 8 from the W125 GP car was made entirely from machined steel for lightness and strength.

Also, the aluminum 4.2 Ford DOHC V8 from the Lotus 38 Indy car that Jimmy Clark won the Indy 500 in '65 with began it's life as an all steel, OHV, carburatted truck engine, that when bumped from 4.3 to 4.7 liters, won Ford the 24 Hours of Le Mans in '68 and '69. And when bumped to 4.9/302 CID, that engine dominated Trans Am in the late '60s and early '70s.

I wonder what Audi or another German company can do with this nearly 50 year old engine, considering that it's considered to be one of the best ever built, and that an all aluminum version would be perfect for the next-gen Mustang.

In all, if high revs is what you want, you'll need a DOHC engine, but for normal low speed driving where torque matters most, you can't go wrong with a fairly large capacity OHV V8.

Or if one wants the best of both worlds, use an aluminum block from an OHV engine and fit a light-weight DOHC heads on the engine, like with the Ford Indy V8 that Lotus used.

The VXR8 is a hotted up Holden Commodore (the HSV E-series), and in Oz, there's a rigidly enforced 70mph speed limit in most areas of the country. Torque matters more than top end power in that situlation, not to mention that the GM LS engines and even the Ford Mod engines get good gas mileage because of brute low end torque, which allow tall gearing and low crusing RPMs--some have complained that Audis, for example, have no need to rev to 3000 rpm at 80mph. You'll do the same in the VXR8 at about 1300 rpm--torque and tall gearing.

Not to mention that the Commodore/VXR8 can do almost everything as well as the Germans can for less--which you can put in the bank, spluge on luxury items (which is what make German and Japanese luxo cars relatively expensive in the first place), or buy parts to make your own VXR8 Bathurst edition before it comes out.

However, I do believe that the Bathurst was like the Audi RS cars, in that they came out in the final year or two of the base car's life cycle?

[ozzycarnut]

the majority of german stuff is more expensive, and i would say on the whole better quality, than the holden and ford fare, but there are exceptions. skoda and vw (well the same company obviously) for instance produce fantastic quality cars at affordable prices. holden and ford simply cant compete with what the germans offer. sure, they have tourquey v8's that lump around low in the rev range, but thats their party trick, aside from this, they are a pos. if you want resale value, something that is good on fuel, wont cost a fortune to purchase and run, and something that no matter where you look, you can see and feel quality engineering, then vw for instance offer all this and have been doing so for years. when you look across vw and skoda's model range and compare the offerings with ford and holden, you would be a fool to consider the australian stuff. and thats before you even consider stuff from audi, merc, porsche, bmw, and others like lexus, subaru, honda etc, all quality manufacturers. i would take the sweet sounding v8 from a lexus isf over anything from holden or ford any day of the week. it will lump along at a snails pace but also get into donut making country quite happily when purssuaded just like holden and ford stuff, but do you know the difference? in the lexus you wont look like some sideways cap wearing hick when you pull up somewhere for dinner and open the door for the mrs to get out. and thats just the lexus. as far as day to day stuff goes, the mum's taxi and runabout stuff, vw stuff is hard to beat. compare a golf or polo for instance with anything from ford or holden, compare everything from price to resale value and everything in between, as well as offering a bit of excitement in your day (thing polo gti and golf r etc), open and close the doors and listen for that quality 'thud', the german stuff cant be beaten. buy a holden or ford if you dont have a soul and want to throw your money away on resale value (both manufacturers are notorious for rubbish resale value, a commodore purchased for instance for say AUD$40K with all the extras, paint protection, window tint etc, will be lucky to be worth AUD$20K after a year from purchase. talk to any accountant in australia and they will recommend one of the best buys you can make when it comes to cars is a 1 or 2 year old commodore / falcon. let the original purchaser bleed on the depreciation, and bang, you got a $40k car still with 2 year warranty etc for half the price). as far as saving any extra dough that you may have saved purchasing an xr8 over say an rs6, and before you get a boner over how much you would save between the two, consider the above mentioned depreciation issue. so what you may save initially by purchasing an xr8 or r8 (holden and ford stuff), it simply wont be worth anything in 2 or 3 years time, unlike an audi rs6 that holds its resale value. the rs6 may cost twice or triple the amount of the holden, but wont halve in value after twelve months. smart money is on quality and resale value (i.e. german and japanese stuff), douche bags who want a v8 for under $10K buy 5 year old falcons and commodores. lastly, comparing say a mercedes amg slk65 with a $40k or $50k commodore that you then spend $100k on turbo or super charging and installing a decent suspension set up and so forth so it ultimately becomes this $150K commodore that can do an 8 second 1/4 mile really is garbage. who, aside from the mentally ill, would buy a car like that second hand? of course its been cained, and holden do not hold their resale value, and given the engine mods, it would drink harder than a miner. so this comes back to resale value etc. the merc, no problem, you know millions have been spent on research and development and its been made with anal retentive precision. so a beast like the slk 65 can be given a good flogging whenever you feel the need as it has been made with this intention, the commodore, or $150K (however many million horsepower) 8 second beast, hasnt. so then we arrive at 5 year mark after owning these two vehicles , ready to sell and upgrade yet retain decent resale etc, and i could safely say that the owner of the sl will recoup most of the purchase price of their car, whereas the owner of the 8 second commodore would be lucky to get $30k. even if you spent a million dollars on the commodore, it is still a commodore. it doesnt go up in value (or quality) the more cash you throw at it. apologies for the lengthy rant, but i feel its important to buck the trend and to question the tripe that is fed to the australian public where they portray that holden and ford stuff is the be all and end all of the automotive world.

[Kitdy]

I think Australia is lucky to have large RWD sedans. Funnily enough, it seems as though the majority of Aussies on UCP don't care for what they have - I would love to have a car like the Falcon or Commodore available here.

What are the Falcon and Commodore competing with? I don't see them competing as much with BMW, Audi, Benz, as much as I do with Toyota and their ilk. A Camry for example.

I would much prefer a Falcon or Commodore to a Camry, Taurus, Fusion, Accord, etc. They represent cheap, RWD family car thrills for me.

I am not sure comparing these two cars with the Germans is the right choice.

ozzy, concerning VW, they are notoriously unreliable and when you compare them in price to what the Japanese offer, they don't make much sense to me. You pay a premium for "quality" German engineering and then get "quality" Brazilian manufacturing.

I also think - and this is a problem that bothers me - that you are conflating the driver of a car with the car - you mention "douche bags who want a v8 for under $10K buy 5 year old falcons and commodores," I mean, if I could get a V8 that is cheap to service and reliable, then I'd be one of those douche bags in line for one of these cars. Just because supposed dicks drive them, doesn't mean they are bad cars.

I typically associate massive dickheadedness with Audi, BMW, and Benz drivers, but that doesn't mean I don't want these cars any less.

I suppose the issue here is that I fundamentally disagree with your point of view. I do like German cars (not VAG so much), but I don't see why Fords and Holdens are so bad. If you came to North America and saw the legions of boring Camrys, Accords, and all that, maybe you would that Australia is lucky to have access to relatively budget RWD cars, maybe not, but maybe.

Over the reliability/repair issue, I disagree with you. Luxury cars seem more prone to breaking down (quality engineering or not), and when things do go wrong, as it already has been mentioned, it costs much more, and it will probably take longer to repair.

[pimento]

RWD is all well and good, but for the cost I'd still take my old FWD Volvo over the equiv. falcodore. Taught suspension and handling greater than RWD barge.

[Chernaudi]

A VXR8 Bathurst ran around the Top Gear test track as fast as an E60 M5. And almost all BMW's until the "F" series cars ran similar suspension to the VXR8--McPherson struts up front and multi link wishbones in the rear.

Not much difference there...

[Man of Steel]

Ozzy, I like to read your posts, but please put some enters and capitals in. I had a few beers and it is hard to keep track of that huge block of text

[clutch-monkey]

I think Australia is lucky to have large RWD sedans. Funnily enough, it seems as though the majority of Aussies on UCP don't care for what they have - I would love to have a car like the Falcon or Commodore available here.

What are the Falcon and Commodore competing with?

they are priced to compete with camry's, accords, with V8 model prices coming in line with VW GTI's and WRX's etc.
the models ozzy is comparing them to (of equivalent performance) cost half as much again at least if not more.

[ozzycarnut]

Ozzy, I like to read your posts, but please put some enters and capitals in. I had a few beers and it is hard to keep track of that huge block of text

thanks for the compliment. there is a method to my madness. outside of my work, i question pretty much everything, even the use of capitals, as i consider that although society may deem it socially acceptable and grammatically correct to use capitals and paragraphs, i say screw society and what is considered 'normal'. what is normal anyway? john and julie average with 2 kids that live in boringville and that all ignore each other around the dinner table while they pick through their dry reech worthy microwave dinners? ugh! i do things my way. you may have gathered also that i am pretty opinionated,what can i say, it keeps things interesting. i will meet you half way though. i will use paragraphs from this point on for ease of reading. crisis over ...

[Ferrer]

RWD is all well and good, but for the cost I'd still take my old FWD Volvo over the equiv. falcodore. Taught suspension and handling greater than RWD barge.

That makes me wonder, in terms of enjoyment, what's better a good front wheel drive car or a bad rear wheel drive one?

[ozzycarnut]

I think Australia is lucky to have large RWD sedans. Funnily enough, it seems as though the majority of Aussies on UCP don't care for what they have - I would love to have a car like the Falcon or Commodore available here.

What are the Falcon and Commodore competing with? I don't see them competing as much with BMW, Audi, Benz, as much as I do with Toyota and their ilk. A Camry for example.

I would much prefer a Falcon or Commodore to a Camry, Taurus, Fusion, Accord, etc. They represent cheap, RWD family car thrills for me.

I am not sure comparing these two cars with the Germans is the right choice.

ozzy, concerning VW, they are notoriously unreliable and when you compare them in price to what the Japanese offer, they don't make much sense to me. You pay a premium for "quality" German engineering and then get "quality" Brazilian manufacturing.

I also think - and this is a problem that bothers me - that you are conflating the driver of a car with the car - you mention "douche bags who want a v8 for under $10K buy 5 year old falcons and commodores," I mean, if I could get a V8 that is cheap to service and reliable, then I'd be one of those douche bags in line for one of these cars. Just because supposed dicks drive them, doesn't mean they are bad cars.

I typically associate massive dickheadedness with Audi, BMW, and Benz drivers, but that doesn't mean I don't want these cars any less.

I suppose the issue here is that I fundamentally disagree with your point of view. I do like German cars (not VAG so much), but I don't see why Fords and Holdens are so bad. If you came to North America and saw the legions of boring Camrys, Accords, and all that, maybe you would that Australia is lucky to have access to relatively budget RWD cars, maybe not, but maybe.

Over the reliability/repair issue, I disagree with you. Luxury cars seem more prone to breaking down (quality engineering or not), and when things do go wrong, as it already has been mentioned, it costs much more, and it will probably take longer to repair.

kitdy, it wouldnt be ucp if everyone agreed eh?! anyway ... in relation to how lucky we are to have rwd v8 cars, or in my opinion, overrated substandard pieces of rubbish, the formula would result in a tail happy oversteering lounge chair, which they essentially are. if you want to do skids and rip down the highway doing 200kph, no problem, get one of these. i guess for my money, i am looking for alot in a car, it needs to be affordable, economical, well made, have decent resale value, offer a bit of a thrill for the driver when pushed, and be able to do the daily drive thing without any problems.

this is why i lean towards euro and jap stuff. its similarly priced to holden and ford stuff, but its refined and holds its value. compare a stock v6 ve commodore, with the poverty pack, (dodgy interior, am radio and tape player etc), to a stock boxer 6 subaru liberty with standard features and interior. its not really a comparison as the subaru is way in front. it retains its value where the holden and ford stuff, because they bring out a new variant every year, sometimes several variants a year, this hurts their resale, as well as quality issues.

i agree that holden and fords direct competitors are the japs, and also more and moreso in recent times, the koreans, and i would go so far as to say they are getting hammered from korean and japanese cars that offer more car for less money. holden and ford simply can not compete with the germans, the quality just isnt there.

in relation to vw being unreliable, i disagree. i know a few people that own golfs and passats, as well as vw commercial vans, and they have not had an issue, on the contrary, my old boy has the large vw commercial van base strapped to a motorhome (the exact model escapes me) but its made by talvor motorhomes and its a 2.5 litre turbo diesel. anyway, to cut a long story short, he just picked it up, then decides to travel around tasmania for a few weeks to enjoy his new purchase. he's in the middle of nowhere in rural tasmania when the hose for the power steering blows. so he gets on the phone to vw, they organise everything, from a loan car (a top of the range passat) to accommodation, and getting the motorhome repaired within two days. if that was holden or ford, you would be fighting them all the way to get a simple thing like that repaired.

though you may disagree with my view, and thats quite okay with me, i live in a different part of the world and see on a daily basis the marketing hype and rubbish that surrounds ford and holden. they are overrated cars which i feel pale in comparison to cars on the global market. sure i see the point in say a $10k v8 commodore, it has plenty of power, is cheap to purchase, and you can have loads of fun in it frying the tyres. look past the surface stuff and you may see my point, you may do, but i wont lose sleep if you dont. things such as fuel economy, resale, build quality, are usually attributes that most car buyers insist upon, and these are things that holden and ford unfortunately do not possess. the $10k v8 commodore wont be worth a used tissue after 10 years of ownership, will cost you a fortune in fuel, and dont get me started on the dodgy brothers build quality of a 10 year old commodore.

"I typically associate massive dickheadedness with Audi, BMW, and Benz drivers, but that doesn't mean I don't want these cars any less."

granted, some are wankers, there is a douche bag factor, or wank factor, that goes with alot of german stuff, but i also appreciate another man's car, and if that car has cost him the best part of $200k or more, that he has also worked very hard to obtain, i would say that is worth a degree of respect.

[fpv_gtho]

i agree that holden and fords direct competitors are the japs, and also more and moreso in recent times, the koreans, and i would go so far as to say they are getting hammered from korean and japanese cars that offer more car for less money. holden and ford simply can not compete with the germans, the quality just isnt there.

More car for less money? Youre comparing the LARGE local cars to MEDIUM sized imports, do you factor that into your rational when trying to look at similarly priced cars?