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Thread: The new Vauxhall VXR8

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    in my opinion, holden and ford stuff is dumb technology. when you look across the board at all manufacturers, yes, including *sigh* hyundai, they have pretty much all evolved into smarter more efficient cars, adopting different drivetrains, suspension setups etc. examples of this are subaru's awd platforms, mercedes s class's plethora of nasa-like technology on wheels (which is often looked at as to what we will have in regular cars in 10 years .... look at the current s class etc), hyundai embracing diesel technology etc. there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of advancements in the automotive industry, which some manufacturers have embraced, and others have gone on their own path. take holden for example, same layout that they have had since kingswood days. sure they have refined it a bit, but it is essentially the same thing that they have been selling for decades, a large family vehicle with a 6 or 8 cyl engine and rwd. they have not moved away from this formula since they have been producing cars (look at the fx and fj, same deal, tractor-like pos ride, low tech and rwd etc). i dont understand the mentality of a commodore / falcon buyer, as there are far more intelligent purchases to be made. cars such as subaru's liberty pisses all over what a falcon or commodore offer, and it holds its resale value and oozes quality (go and check one out if you doubt it). also compare a vw golf or polo with a ford focus or holden barina. its a no brainer. i could rabbit on all night about different cars that carve up holden and ford on so many levels, but whats the point, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink. for me, holden and ford stuff is for people who dont know anything about cars and are happy to be average, happy to make do with what they have, as if they new differently, knew that there was a far better quality car just around the corner for similar money that holds its resale value (unlike holden and ford), they would grab it with both hands. each to their own i guess, give me jap / italian / german stuff any day.
    I'm afraid I fail to understand why all Ford and Holden stuff is "dumb technology". How about a Fiesta Econetic? Or a Mondeo TDCi with its 5.9L/100km fuel economy? Or a Focus RS - which is hardly low tech.
    Even the Falcon is hardly low tech. A 24-valve DOHC motor with Variable Valve Timing may no longer be absolute cutting edge, but its still current technology. True, it needs Direct Injection to bring it up to the very latest standards, but there are still plenty of V6 and straight six 24-valve DOHC motors in use by other manufacturers - including BMW. Also, not many cars at the same price as the Falcon (mid-high $30K) have better gearboxes than the 6-speed ZF box - which is German built and also sees service in various Mercedes models.
    The Holden sixes also feature 24-valve V6s with Direct Injection, and likewise have modern six-speed autos.
    The Falcons and Commodores may not be absolute cutting edge, but they are hardly "low-tech". They don't have OHV motors, live rear axles, 3-speed autos or drum brakes.
    What the Falcons and Commodores do is provide plenty of space for 5 people in comfort, with a fairly high level of refinement and smoothness, decent ride/handling compromise and the capability of towing pretty heavy trailers.
    They do the job they are designed for. Nothing more. Nothing less.
    Where they fall down - and where the Japanese/European opposition comes up trumps is in perceived build quality and certainly in poor resale value.
    The comparable Volkswagen Passat may have more cutting edge tech with their DSG gearboxes and efficient diesel engines, but they are also more expensive and that high-tech DSG box has not proven to be highly reliable in service yet.
    The Subaru Liberty, Honda Accord Euro and Mazda6 (a manufacturer/car you haven't yet mentioned) are all great cars, with excellent build quality, handling, refinement, comfort and space and will all be reliable. They would all be on my personal shopping list (well - maybe not the new Liberty which looks appalling). And I recommend them all the time to those looking for cars in the $30-40K bracket.
    However, none of them are any more cutting edge in terms of technology than the similar priced Fords and Holdens. Except perhaps the Subaru AWD system - but considering that most road tests say that the FWD Mazda6 has comparable handling, I'd question whether the complexity of the Subaru's AWD system and higher cost of maintenance is worth it for marginal improvements over the FWD & RWD platforms at the same price.
    Also, none of the Japanese fours can tow a caravan as easily as a Ford or Holden and none are as spacious. Also, fours are inherently less refined and more coarse than either a straight six or V6, so they can't match the Aussie sixes for smoothness either.

    What I'm saying is simple - most of the cars that the Falcon and Commodore sixes can be compared with are no more cutting edge in tems of technology.
    I agree that no private buyer should buy a Falcon or Commodore new due to excessive depreciation. And I agree that there are other excellent cars in the same price bracket, but buying a two year old Falcon or Commodore is hardly a dumb decision.
    Personally, while I own a Fairmont BA, I won't proclaim it the best car around. It does its job well though and is hardly a complete pig to drive.
    And in a few years time I'd consider replacing it with a Mondeo TDCi - once its taken its initial hit of depreciation. And I won't think I'm poorer for buying a Mondeo over a Passat. I would consider a Mazda6 though.

    As for comparing any Commodore or Falcon with a $200K Euro - waste of time. They are not comparable in no one buying a Mercedes E63 will even consider an HSV or FPV.
    One must also remember that these high price Euros do depreciate. Anyone for an Audi RS4 for around $30K? What were they new seven or so years ago? Worth considering if you can afford to maintain it.
    I agree with you about the Barina however - but that's hardly a true Holden is it?
    Last edited by motorsportnerd; 12-20-2010 at 08:40 PM.
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  2. #47
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    Just a small nit picking correction. Daimler makes its own automatic gearboxes. However the ZF gearbox is widely used by many manufacturers, including BMW, Aston Martin, Jaguar or Maserati amongst others.
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  3. #48
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    I must actually point out that the most high tech saloon in the $30-40K price bracket is in fact the Toyota Camry Hybrid. A car designed in Japan and built in Australia. But then, the Camry Hybrid is a Toyota and this is an enthusiast forum, so enough said....
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    Quote Originally Posted by fpv_gtho View Post
    More car for less money? Youre comparing the LARGE local cars to MEDIUM sized imports, do you factor that into your rational when trying to look at similarly priced cars?
    in different scenarios i have compared australian cars to japanese and euro stuff, all of which have different size category vehicles. a comparison with a commodore and a liberty however is not too far off the mark, both seat 5 adults, both have 6 cylinder engines, both can tow a caravan etc, the liberty may be slightly smaller, but essentially does the same job, albeit with awd. compare the interior and drive train of a liberty, then go and have a look at a commodore, or falcon, and just quietly, personally the liberty i dont care for, but i stand by the fact that it is a quality car.

    the falcons and commodores look and feel cheap. go over them, like really give them a good going over, and you will see what i mean. panel gaps that you drive a bus through, ill fitting interior plastics that also look nasty and betray the $55k that you have just dumped on a calais with leather etc. before you dismiss this, go and check the panel gaps, and then go to a jap or euro car yard and do the same, then you may see what i am banging on about.

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    Interior quality is important; I'd argue that for an enthusiast, driving pleasure is greater.

    Is a Falcon/Commodore more fun to drive than the other cars you mention? Unsure, but a big advantage in the eyes of many enthusiasts is that they are RWD.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Interior quality is important; I'd argue that for an enthusiast, driving pleasure is greater.

    Is a Falcon/Commodore more fun to drive than the other cars you mention? Unsure, but a big advantage in the eyes of many enthusiasts is that they are RWD.
    They're not brilliant, but they're a lot less bargey than they used to be.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
    I'm afraid I fail to understand why all Ford and Holden stuff is "dumb technology". How about a Fiesta Econetic? Or a Mondeo TDCi with its 5.9L/100km fuel economy? Or a Focus RS - which is hardly low tech.
    Even the Falcon is hardly low tech. A 24-valve DOHC motor with Variable Valve Timing may no longer be absolute cutting edge, but its still current technology. True, it needs Direct Injection to bring it up to the very latest standards, but there are still plenty of V6 and straight six 24-valve DOHC motors in use by other manufacturers - including BMW. Also, not many cars at the same price as the Falcon (mid-high $30K) have better gearboxes than the 6-speed ZF box - which is German built and also sees service in various Mercedes models.
    The Holden sixes also feature 24-valve V6s with Direct Injection, and likewise have modern six-speed autos.
    The Falcons and Commodores may not be absolute cutting edge, but they are hardly "low-tech". They don't have OHV motors, live rear axles, 3-speed autos or drum brakes.
    What the Falcons and Commodores do is provide plenty of space for 5 people in comfort, with a fairly high level of refinement and smoothness, decent ride/handling compromise and the capability of towing pretty heavy trailers.
    They do the job they are designed for. Nothing more. Nothing less.
    Where they fall down - and where the Japanese/European opposition comes up trumps is in perceived build quality and certainly in poor resale value.
    The comparable Volkswagen Passat may have more cutting edge tech with their DSG gearboxes and efficient diesel engines, but they are also more expensive and that high-tech DSG box has not proven to be highly reliable in service yet.
    The Subaru Liberty, Honda Accord Euro and Mazda6 (a manufacturer/car you haven't yet mentioned) are all great cars, with excellent build quality, handling, refinement, comfort and space and will all be reliable. They would all be on my personal shopping list (well - maybe not the new Liberty which looks appalling). And I recommend them all the time to those looking for cars in the $30-40K bracket.
    However, none of them are any more cutting edge in terms of technology than the similar priced Fords and Holdens. Except perhaps the Subaru AWD system - but considering that most road tests say that the FWD Mazda6 has comparable handling, I'd question whether the complexity of the Subaru's AWD system and higher cost of maintenance is worth it for marginal improvements over the FWD & RWD platforms at the same price.
    Also, none of the Japanese fours can tow a caravan as easily as a Ford or Holden and none are as spacious. Also, fours are inherently less refined and more coarse than either a straight six or V6, so they can't match the Aussie sixes for smoothness either.

    What I'm saying is simple - most of the cars that the Falcon and Commodore sixes can be compared with are no more cutting edge in tems of technology.
    I agree that no private buyer should buy a Falcon or Commodore new due to excessive depreciation. And I agree that there are other excellent cars in the same price bracket, but buying a two year old Falcon or Commodore is hardly a dumb decision.
    Personally, while I own a Fairmont BA, I won't proclaim it the best car around. It does its job well though and is hardly a complete pig to drive.
    And in a few years time I'd consider replacing it with a Mondeo TDCi - once its taken its initial hit of depreciation. And I won't think I'm poorer for buying a Mondeo over a Passat. I would consider a Mazda6 though.

    As for comparing any Commodore or Falcon with a $200K Euro - waste of time. They are not comparable in no one buying a Mercedes E63 will even consider an HSV or FPV.
    One must also remember that these high price Euros do depreciate. Anyone for an Audi RS4 for around $30K? What were they new seven or so years ago? Worth considering if you can afford to maintain it.
    I agree with you about the Barina however - but that's hardly a true Holden is it?
    the dumb technology comment was mainly aimed at falcon and commodore. their respective manufacturers have not changed their dna since day one. they are still large rwd 6 cylinder family cars. its pretty boring stuff, same old, same old etc. thats what i mean by 'dumb technology'. in essence, they have evolved little or none since they were conceived, yet they both manufacturers have a wealth of r & d resources at their fingertips that they fail to employ when it comes to falcon and commodore. also, just for giggles, type in 'falcon ute leaf spring suspension' to google, grab a beer, and be prepared to raise both eyebrows at how 'technologically advanced' ford are.

    in relation to the liberty, accord and mazda 6, there was a general comment there about jap cars and build quality, so this encompasses these vehicles, all of which are great cars. and i would say sure, they may not be the most exciting cars around, but if you have a checklist, these will meet pretty much all of it.

    of course a japanese four cant tow a caravan! *shakes head* and you mention also that the holden and fords do it better ... gee i wonder why ... having a 6 cylinder engine and all ....

    buying a 2 year old falcon / commodore i think is dumb, when you have plenty of other stuff to choose from, cars that you have mentioned, that hold their value and offer alot more than just the skid factor.

    i think the only buyer that would consider a commodore or falcon over say an m5 or sl65 would be a buyer wearing thongs, stubbies and a singlet, and he is on his way home from picking up his lotto cheque. people with real money wouldnt consider rubbish like a commodore or falcon, as they know too well about their depreciation and quality issues. the euros do depreciate, but nowhere near that of a commodore or falcon ... 'going down like a lead balloon' springs to mind ...

    i will never buy either a falcon or a commodore, for the reasons that i have outlined in this thread. thats not to say that i havnt considered them, a falcon xr6 turbo would make a fantastic skid mobile, and they can be had for around $20k, but therein lies the problem of turbo failure issues, fuel consumption problems, losing your licence, etc etc, as well as depreciation etc. it would be a fun car to drive, rather than a fun car to own.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    the dumb technology comment was mainly aimed at falcon and commodore. their respective manufacturers have not changed their dna since day one. they are still large rwd 6 cylinder family cars. its pretty boring stuff, same old, same old etc..
    BMW have stuck to large rwd 6 clyinder format for the 5-series models for many decades. Still works for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    thats what i mean by 'dumb technology'. in essence, they have evolved little or none since they were conceived, yet they both manufacturers have a wealth of r & d resources at their fingertips that they fail to employ when it comes to falcon and commodore. also, just for giggles, type in 'falcon ute leaf spring suspension' to google, grab a beer, and be prepared to raise both eyebrows at how 'technologically advanced' ford are...
    You're correct about the ute. Something about leaf springs being stronger for carrying loads. Of course other utes have long since dropped leaf strings.

    Other than the format of large RWD/six cylinder drivetrain (also employed by other manufacturers including BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes), you still haven't noted how a Falcon or Commodore sedan is actually low tech. I have argued they are not cutting edge high tech, but they certainly current tech.
    Unless six-speed autos and DOHC motors with Variable Valve timing are somehow ancient technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    in relation to the liberty, accord and mazda 6, there was a general comment there about jap cars and build quality, so this encompasses these vehicles, all of which are great cars. and i would say sure, they may not be the most exciting cars around, but if you have a checklist, these will meet pretty much all of it....
    Agreed with this, as I noted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    of course a japanese four cant tow a caravan! *shakes head* and you mention also that the holden and fords do it better ... gee i wonder why ... having a 6 cylinder engine and all ........
    Plenty of people do need to tow - hence the comment about this. A Liberty six will tow - but unless buying one a few years old, don't forget a Liberty six is $51K whereas a Falcon G6 is over $10K cheaper. Would very much depend on whether one could stretch the extra $10K or is happy with the old shape Liberty - which is better looking anyway.
    The Aurion and various SUVs in this price category will also tow of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    buying a 2 year old falcon / commodore i think is dumb, when you have plenty of other stuff to choose from, cars that you have mentioned, that hold their value and offer alot more than just the skid factor.....
    It is actually quite difficult to skid a base model Falcon or Commodores. The suspension technology is somewhat improved over the 1980s after all. The suspension of both cars easily copes with the power. And both are fitted with ESP and Traction Control - as are all their competitors.
    A Falcon XR6 Turbo or Commodore SS would be different story - depending on how often one drove them around with the ESP and Traction Control turned off.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    i think the only buyer that would consider a commodore or falcon over say an m5 or sl65 would be a buyer wearing thongs, stubbies and a singlet, and he is on his way home from picking up his lotto cheque. people with real money wouldnt consider rubbish like a commodore or falcon, as they know too well about their depreciation and quality issues. the euros do depreciate, but nowhere near that of a commodore or falcon ... 'going down like a lead balloon' springs to mind .....
    As noted several times in this thread a M5 or SL65 is not comparable in any way with even the top HSVs or FPVs. Yes - they are better, that is not in dispute. They appeal to different types of people.
    Would I chose an M5 over an HSV? Of course, if I was willing to spend $150K plus on a car. But at that sort of price, there are other options to chose over an M5 as well - a Nissan GTR for instance.

    Also, as noted, some Euro cars do depreciate heavily - especially the luxury barges like the 7-series. As noted, one can buy an Audi S4 or RS4 for around $30K - a huge saving over the new price. Only clued up enthusiasts are likely to chose one over almost any $30K brand new car though, as they wouldn't be cheap to run.


    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    i will never buy either a falcon or a commodore, for the reasons that i have outlined in this thread. thats not to say that i havnt considered them, a falcon xr6 turbo would make a fantastic skid mobile, and they can be had for around $20k, but therein lies the problem of turbo failure issues, fuel consumption problems, losing your licence, etc etc, as well as depreciation etc. it would be a fun car to drive, rather than a fun car to own.
    My defence of the Falcon and Commodore has so far been limited to the standard six clyinder models - the Falcon XR6, G6 and G6E and Commodore Berlina and SV6 - all available for $40K or less. The base Falcon XT and Omega are for fleets only and far too under-equipped to be worth comparing to the Japanese or Euro rivals under $40K. Ford and Holden keep them on only to serve fleets.
    The "sporty" models, the luxury models and the HSVs and FPVs are different.

    While I'd argue that a Falcon G6 or Commodore SV6 is the equal of almost any sub-$40K car, I won't argue that a $60K Calais V represents good value against a Skoda Superb. It doesn't. The Superb is vastly superior in every way. But there is a big difference between the $60K market and the $40K market. Many more cars and much more cutting edge technology opens up to the buyers of $60K cars that are not available in most sub-$40K cars.

    A 2-year old Falcon XR6 equipped with the ZF six speed gearbox can be purchased for around $26K. At this price it would appeal to plenty of families and enthusiasts who would keep it for quite a few years. Many buyers won't consider the purchase of such a car to be dumb - and most of them won't even be bogans. Its easy to generalise about car buyers, but most people I see driving these cars are 40-50 year old middle management types, not low IQ knuckle dragging bogans. They stick to the much older Falcons and Holdens and give all drivers of Falcons and Holdens a bad name.

    Of course $26K will buy a brand new VW Golf - which of course would appeal to many people. But then most won't compare a Golf with a Falcon. Families won't fit the Golf. Single people generally won't want the Falcon unless they like big cars. It would come down to needs and wants - and everyone is different there.

    I have no issue at all with Euro or Japanese cars. My favourite cars are European. However, I also like and will defend Australian built cars - including the locally built Toyotas. Basically I like cars of all types, and consider that the Falcon and Commodore still have their place in the market.
    Last edited by motorsportnerd; 12-22-2010 at 06:20 AM.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Interior quality is important; I'd argue that for an enthusiast, driving pleasure is greater.

    Is a Falcon/Commodore more fun to drive than the other cars you mention? Unsure, but a big advantage in the eyes of many enthusiasts is that they are RWD.
    i'll PM you a link - a local photographer for a car mag has picked up the latest VE ute and likes it a lot.. coming from a guy who routinely drives top end audi's etc for photoshoots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
    BMW have stuck to large rwd 6 clyinder format for the 5-series models for many decades. Still works for them.

    You're correct about the ute. Something about leaf springs being stronger for carrying loads. Of course other utes have long since dropped leaf strings.

    Other than the format of large RWD/six cylinder drivetrain (also employed by other manufacturers including BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes), you still haven't noted how a Falcon or Commodore sedan is actually low tech. I have argued they are not cutting edge high tech, but they certainly current tech.
    Unless six-speed autos and DOHC motors with Variable Valve timing are somehow ancient technology.

    Agreed with this, as I noted above.

    Plenty of people do need to tow - hence the comment about this. A Liberty six will tow - but unless buying one a few years old, don't forget a Liberty six is $51K whereas a Falcon G6 is over $10K cheaper. Would very much depend on whether one could stretch the extra $10K or is happy with the old shape Liberty - which is better looking anyway.
    The Aurion and various SUVs in this price category will also tow of course.

    It is actually quite difficult to skid a base model Falcon or Commodores. The suspension technology is somewhat improved over the 1980s after all. The suspension of both cars easily copes with the power. And both are fitted with ESP and Traction Control - as are all their competitors.
    A Falcon XR6 Turbo or Commodore SS would be different story - depending on how often one drove them around with the ESP and Traction Control turned off.

    As noted several times in this thread a M5 or SL65 is not comparable in any way with even the top HSVs or FPVs. Yes - they are better, that is not in dispute. They appeal to different types of people.
    Would I chose an M5 over an HSV? Of course, if I was willing to spend $150K plus on a car. But at that sort of price, there are other options to chose over an M5 as well - a Nissan GTR for instance.

    Also, as noted, some Euro cars do depreciate heavily - especially the luxury barges like the 7-series. As noted, one can buy an Audi S4 or RS4 for around $30K - a huge saving over the new price. Only clued up enthusiasts are likely to chose one over almost any $30K brand new car though, as they wouldn't be cheap to run.

    My defence of the Falcon and Commodore has so far been limited to the standard six clyinder models - the Falcon XR6, G6 and G6E and Commodore Berlina and SV6 - all available for $40K or less. The base Falcon XT and Omega are for fleets only and far too under-equipped to be worth comparing to the Japanese or Euro rivals under $40K. Ford and Holden keep them on only to serve fleets.
    The "sporty" models, the luxury models and the HSVs and FPVs are different.

    While I'd argue that a Falcon G6 or Commodore SV6 is the equal of almost any sub-$40K car, I won't argue that a $60 Calais V represents good value against a Skoda Superb. It doesn't. The Superb is vastly superior in every way. But there is a big difference between the $60K market and the $40K market. Many more cars and much more cutting edge technology opens up to the buyers of $60K cars that are not available in most sub-$40K cars.

    A 2-year old Falcon XR6 equipped with the ZF six speed gearbox can be purchased for around $26K. At this price it would appeal to plenty of families and enthusiasts who would keep it for quite a few years. Many buyers won't consider the purchase of such a car to be dumb - and most of them won't even be bogans. Its easy to generalise about car buyers, but most people I see driving these cars are 40-50 year old middle management types, not low IQ knuckle dragging bogans. They stick to the much older Falcons and Holdens and give all drivers of Falcons and Holdens a bad name.

    Of course $26K will buy a brand new VW Golf - which of course would appeal to many people. But then most won't compare a Golf with a Falcon. Families won't fit the Golf. Single people generally won't want the Falcon unless they like big cars. It would come down to needs and wants - and everyone is different there.

    I have no issue at all with Euro or Japanese cars. My favourite cars are European. However, I also like and will defend Australian built cars - including the locally built Toyotas. Basically I like cars of all types, and consider that the Falcon and Commodore still have their place in the market.
    re bmw and rwd, i agree, they have, but they have also come along way since day one, if they have not essentially changed the backbone of the vehicle, i.e. front mount engine, rwd etc, they have evolved everything else around this.

    re holden and low tech, consider all manufacturers, and how they have refined their vehicles and evolved, some adopting hybrid technology, some awd platforms etc, and commodore and falcon are nowhere to be seen among this crowd. holden and hsv produced the coupe 4 a while ago (an awd v8 monaro), having a crack at awd technology, but then binned it. there was also talk of a turbo six and 8 commodore, but its never gotten further than talk. ford have adopted the turbo into their xr6, which is great, but its hardly a milestone, if it were matched with a v8 and twin turbo as well as awd to keep things under control, i would probably applaud ford, but they need to keep the bean counters happy and punch out the camry-esque stuff.

    "It is actually quite difficult to skid a base model Falcon or Commodores."

    my work car will testify otherwise. it has the worn out rear tyres to prove it, (a BF Futura btw). very easy to get it sideways or frying the tyres from a standing start. the traction control does kick in, but doesnt completely override the driver input of me with both feet on the accelorator, billowing clouds of smoke behind me as i race off to get another speeding ticket etc.

    "A 2-year old Falcon XR6 equipped with the ZF six speed gearbox can be purchased for around $26K. "


    mmm.... are you sure about that? car sales.com says otherwise, $11500 they start at



    also on car sales, the cheapest audi rs4, a 2006 with 85380 k's is $82990, a bit more than your claimed $30k.


    but anyway, we wont get caught up on on detail eh?

    i guess i tend to look at things differently, and theres nothing wrong with that, it keeps life interesting. i want alot in a car, rather than purely what is inexpensive. when you consider the second hand vehicle market, and the array of quality stuff on there, you wonder why people choose holden and ford stuff, for instance, i saw a i think it was a 2005 911 carrera on carsales the other week with 60,000k's, one owner, log book service history etc, for i think it was $70k, which i think is great buying. this represents a far more intelligent purchase than say a new evo or hsv. the carerra will provide ample thrills for your bills, and being classic 911 carerra stuff, it holds its value well. obviously if you buy something like this new, you are going to bleed out the arse with depreciation, but as a second hand proposition, its good value.

    i think also that you are starting to see my point, with respect to your calais v skoda comment. skoda, or should i say vw, are well made, and something like the superb, or octavia, is leaps and bounds ahead of a calais, let alone a council pack entry level commodre / omega. compare also a golf and a barina, its not really a contest, the golf is superior wherever you look, as well as resale, which is one big factor for me, as when it comes time to trade up, i dont want to be forking out money that i dont need to.

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    that's less than half of what they go for new.. for a car only 4 years old and optioned up through the shitter when new..

    edit: compared to ford's camry competitor, a mass produced commuter car.
    edit edit: $11500 AUD for a 400rwhp saloon? count me in
    Last edited by clutch-monkey; 12-21-2010 at 07:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    re bmw and rwd, i agree, they have, but they have also come along way since day one, if they have not essentially changed the backbone of the vehicle, i.e. front mount engine, rwd etc, they have evolved everything else around this.

    re holden and low tech, consider all manufacturers, and how they have refined their vehicles and evolved, some adopting hybrid technology, some awd platforms etc, and commodore and falcon are nowhere to be seen among this crowd. holden and hsv produced the coupe 4 a while ago (an awd v8 monaro), having a crack at awd technology, but then binned it. there was also talk of a turbo six and 8 commodore, but its never gotten further than talk. ford have adopted the turbo into their xr6, which is great, but its hardly a milestone, if it were matched with a v8 and twin turbo as well as awd to keep things under control, i would probably applaud ford, but they need to keep the bean counters happy and punch out the camry-esque stuff..
    I agree that both Ford and Holden could push the envelope more - especially with the high end luxury and FPV/HSV variants.
    For the low end bread & butter stuff around $40K, it is less necessary. Most cutting edge technology is in more expensive vehicles - certain Volkswagens, various hatches, and the Camry Hybrid aside. The technology must be current however - and I roundly slated the VE Commodore for having an ancient 4-speed auto when it was first released. The VE Commodore has caught up somewhat though now with standard 6-speed auto and Direct Injection.

    It is worth noting that the new Ford Territory due next year will have a turbo-diesel engine, and the Falcon will get 180kW 4-clyinder Eco-boost turbo engines. So in a years time we may be able to say that the Falcon and Territory are a little bit more cutting edge than now.


    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    "It is actually quite difficult to skid a base model Falcon or Commodores."


    my work car will testify otherwise. it has the worn out rear tyres to prove it, (a BF Futura btw). very easy to get it sideways or frying the tyres from a standing start. the traction control does kick in, but doesnt completely override the driver input of me with both feet on the accelorator, billowing clouds of smoke behind me as i race off to get another speeding ticket etc.
    ..
    Sorry - was thinking more of the FG Falcon and VE Commodore. Although driving around on worn tyres is a recipe for wheel spin in pretty much anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    ""A 2-year old Falcon XR6 equipped with the ZF six speed gearbox can be purchased for around $26K. "


    mmm.... are you sure about that? car sales.com says otherwise, $11500 they start at
    ..
    Again - was thinking of the FG Falcon XR6 - like this one: http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/...=1768&__N=1216 1246 1247 1252 1282 4294966285 4294966463 1652 1768&silo=1011&__No=15&seot=1&__Nne=15&trecs=3900& __sid=12D0E8B289A7.

    Although the one linked has done higher kms. Low km ones should be around the $26K I quoted.

    However, regarding the link you supplied, I'm not surprised that XR6 Turbos of 2002/03 vintage have gotten so cheap. The miles have piled on and the age is adding up. Not for me though - the insurance is much too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    Fair enough - I should have checked. I got the $30K from a Top Gear magazine used car report from a year or so ago. It may have been referring to early 2000s S4 variants though to get the $30K figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    ""[i think also that you are starting to see my point, with respect to your calais v skoda comment. skoda, or should i say vw, are well made, and something like the superb, or octavia, is leaps and bounds ahead of a calais, let alone a council pack entry level commodre / omega. compare also a golf and a barina, its not really a contest, the golf is superior wherever you look, as well as resale, which is one big factor for me, as when it comes time to trade up, i dont want to be forking out money that i dont need to.
    I agree wholeheatedly about the high end stuff. Not sure I'd agree an Octavia, which is basically a cheaper Jetta, is in the same league. But it is comparable to the Japanese fours and bread & butter Falcons/Commodores in terms of price and I wouldn't dismiss it.
    UCP's biggest Ford Sierra RS500 and BMW M3 E30 fan. My two favourite cars of all time.

  13. #58
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    I know I Johnny come lately to this but what the hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post

    i have always had a problem with statements like this. i have said it before, and i will say it again, you cant compare a $50K slapped together commodore with a (give or take a few dollars) $100K merc / audi etc.
    I have of the thought the same thing. How on earth can you justify paying more for a 3 litre 6 cylinder BMW. My boss has a new one. Can’t believe what she paid for it. It is spectacularly unspectacular for the outrageous price premium.


    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    for instance, mercedes probably inject $1m into research and development for the lock on the glove box of their e class, whereas holden / vauxhall would inject maybe $100 if you are lucky.
    Yeah, er, money well spent huh…

    I will introduce some fact into this discussion. Hope you are ok with that.

    The VE Commodore started development in 1999. Holden, yes pissy little Ozzy only Holden actually designed a ne platform for this car. Holden, the guys you claim “have evolved little”.
    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    i will probably get a bit of curry for this, but i dont care ... holden and ford stuff is garbage.
    a bit of curry for baseless fact less sweeping comments, nah…

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post

    there, i said it. it is not made with the same precision as german, italian and japanese stuff. they are the sort of cars that when constructed, the workers say 'yeah, looks about right (bit of a bang and knock into place etc) all good (thumbs up, used car salesman grin etc)'.
    I know you are exaggerating and making this crap up to prove a point but seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
    yes, there are variants over the years that were made very well, but when compared to world class engineering, holden and ford stuff is for the taxi ranks of australia and not much else. i guess you could add to this that out of the cars mentioned above, what would still be purring as beautifully in 20 years time as when you picked it up on day one from the dealer, and it certainly wont be the clapped out vauxhall / holden!
    Plenty of worse built Commodores and Fords are still driving around the roads today. So are the BMWs and Mercs. It’s just that the owners of the Fords and Holden’s didn’t ditch as much in depreciation on them .
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  14. #59
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    I'm not going to comment on this whole Australian cars v the rest of the world business, because my knowledge of Australian cars is... well... there isn't any.

    But there's something interesting. I frankly don't understand why more many here know that I'm a fan of the Toyota iQ for instance, but I don't think that more technology always improves everything. I'd say that all this technology for the sake technology is what has given us, for the most part, today's overweight, overequipped, overelectronic and over the top cars.

    For example, unless you live in a part of the world where it snows 350 days a year and there's mud, gravel and rocks all over the place why do you need four wheel drive? Surely it only brings added unnecessary complexity, increased fuel consuption and lower performance.

    Or all the electronic gizmos. Active radar-guided cruise control, 8-stage traction control, lane-departure thingy, automatic lights and wipers. Surely all of those gadget can be replaced by actually... driving? Which if I'm not mistaken, I would say this is what car are there for. If anything this makes drivers even more stupid than usual.

    So, clever engineering yes. Technology for the sake of technology, no.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
    that's less than half of what they go for new.. for a car only 4 years old and optioned up through the shitter when new..

    edit: compared to ford's camry competitor, a mass produced commuter car.
    edit edit: $11500 AUD for a 400rwhp saloon? count me in
    even though you have completely missed my point (old mate said that rs4's could be had for $30k, which it would appear they cant ...), i dont really understand your point, with respect to say for instance a new $40k commodore / falcon, whats that worth after four years, mmm .... $10 - $15 K?. if that much at all. i.e. you have just bled about 75% of the original purchase price. the audi has nothing on the falcon and commodore for depreciation, they are the kings.

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