Can a car be too secure for normal driving and have therefore no fun.

[kiwitt]

My aging 1996 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 seems really secure and like it is on rails when driven at normal speeds of between 30-60 mph (50-100km/h). It is loaded with safety features like 4WD, AYC, ESC, ABS, etc. I have a slightly lowered suspension (40mm) and 18" lightweight alloys shod with Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric.

It feels really safe to drive, but I am thinking it may possibly be too safe to be fun and it has does not have the feeling of driving at the edge at these more normal speeds. Don't get me wrong, when I take it out on the open road and cruise through corners at speed most people crawl through, it's a great feeling, as I always tell my wife, holding her seat next to me.

In the next few years, I will probably have to let this car go as maintenance and fuel costs may skyrocket, however, if I am lucky I may still have it when it is 20 years old (only 5 years away only). So my thoughts are starting to wonder to a replacement vehicle and I am thinking about a more smaller / nimble car and am unsure what may have the fun factor.

I am looking at the Suzuki Swift Sport, Mazda 2, Ford Fiesta, Mini Cooper, Citroen DS3, Alfa Romeo Mito, Honda Civic, etc. Small cars with lots of character and I suspect lot's of fun. Also briefly considered was an MX-5 Hard-top. The newer mid-range hatch-backs, like the Focus, Lancer, Mazda 3, Golf, etc, have grown to be the same size and weight of my car with less power in most cases. So I am thinking if I am going to have to have a less power, I want less weight to go with it as well.

I'm not into all these active safety features, like air-bags, crumple zones, etc., as I prefer accident avoidance as opposed to accident survival, given that more accidents are avoided then actually occur, I assume.

In addition, I will not be buying brand-new so the current market models are what I will be considering when I buy, as they will then be significantly cheaper on the second-hand market. So opinions are sought on lightweight nimble small-cars that may be fun to drive as well.

[FastDriver]

Ford Focus ST, Lotus Elise, and the civic, are all fun cars I can think of that won't break the bank. As far as safety is concerned. Why would you want to be less safe? That just doesn't make any sense...

[clutch-monkey]

may possibly be too safe to be fun and it has does not have the feeling of driving at the edge at these more normal speeds.

original mini will solve that, besides being ridiculusly cheap to run and buy parts for.
failing that x2 on MX5!

[henk4]

I am puzzled by the thread title. NORMAL driving automatically means SECURE driving, so I am not totally sure what you are after.

[pimento]

original mini will solve that, besides being ridiculusly cheap to run and buy parts for.
failing that x2 on MX5!

Seconded.

[LeonOfTheDead]

In all honesty, I fail to see how most "normal" cars can't help you getting out of some dangerous situations, even more considering what Joe A. is capable of when it comes to emergency maneuvers.

Unless you buy something an A-klasse mk1 or anything else willing to rest on its top rather than on its wheels.

Most cars have just about the same braking distances, it's rather a matter of how many times you can deploy brakes' max power.

Handling is definitely different from car to car, but I'd say that in most cases the car can handle out of an emergency maneuver given the driver is paying enough attention and is trained to. In all honestly, a sportier car could result in a more nervous behave leading to more troubles if the maneuver isn't done "perfectly".

All of this doesn't mean you an have something that is also "fun" to drive.

To that regards, I think cars from the last decade were a bit more entertaining because of the generally lower weight and much less auxiliaries to tone down the engine's response, along with some engine's solutions further diluting it's behave for the sake of fuel consumption and the likes.
Also, in some cases the lack of ABS/ASR and even more ESP demanded a better inherent design, with designers not allowed to trust the electronics to save the day. (see A-klasse once again)

[Matra et Alpine]

In all honesty, I fail to see how most "normal" cars can't help you getting out of some dangerous situations,

The thinking goes this way ...

Modern cars are required to pass safety tests and to be "safe" in difficult maneouvres.
So the car is designed to be less aggressive turn-in.
To not have significant weight shift possible.
and worst of all to UNDERSTEER by design.

This makes it on average safer for everyone.
It's like ABS ... a great safety device ... BUT somethign that a good driver can stop a car in a shorter distance

SO as long as braking is what is needed, then it is "as safe".
BUT, if a fast turn away from the problem is what's needed then it wont do it.
NOW, the flip side is a car built to be able to have aggresive turn-in, to hav "controllable" weigh transfer and to be "neutral" to allow for inital throttle induced underseer or brake induced oversteer and subsequent brake/throttle controled slip ... now THAT is a car that can get out of / avoid trouble better. Equally tho' it is now a car that can get IN to trouble if the driver drops their guard.

Short wheelbase GroupB rally cars epitomised this approach - and it's inherent difficulties

Street cars are nowhere near the extreme of those, but some are there when needed.

Certainly for me that's how I see the difficulty in modern car designs and "fun" Closest example to heart is the stock RX8 versus the ProDrive version. They both have the same weight balance and power/drive. The ProDrive however sacrifices comfort and a little stability on rough surfaces to deliver a much sharper turn in and if you turn off the smarts you can point the car mid corner with throttle and left foot braking. NOT in the style of drifters who want lots of wheelspin, but in throttle induced steer which is a compeltely different capabiltiy and skill in the driver.

[LeonOfTheDead]

We do agree, but I still think most modern cars aren't as butter-made to drive you directly into an obstacle as soon as you try to recover the situation.
There are of course some exceptions.

At the same time most car can be improved and tuned according to our style/taste. They are obviously designed to be generally safe in the hand of a generally capable (actually, less than that) driver.

With that in mind, as you race your Mazda frequently, you're not entitled to talk about Joe A.'s capabilities

Even this understeering by default thing is a bit overvalued. Yes it's true an everyday car will be more prone to under than oversteer. Truth is in most cases it's the wrong maneuver by the driver to trigger the understeer, and that would be the same in a sportier car, just with the tail playing the main character.

ABS is a tricky field, if properly designed on a road car it's likely it will have an edge over the driver for sensibility (also considering the nature of modern cars) and accuracy. Of course race cars are bit of a different field AND racing a road car doesn't count (you're out again ).

I think ESP is a much better example, something that yes can save your ass but at the same time makes your car a deriving brick waiting for the next obstacle. A decently advised driver could do just about the same or even better.

On a final note, I don't think any situation when you require a "better" car to save the day is happening within the road limits (not only speed)

[Matra et Alpine]

AS he alluded to FD, it is preferable to have a vehicle that you can AVOID an accident in than one that as it happens will plough on regardless.

Not a zero-sum choice though as you need some safety for the time some idiot runs a read linght on you ( though police training even demosntrates how THAT is avoidable ).
SO i know exactly where his needs are sitting with respect to having "fun" in a "safe enough" way.
Also "safe" and "safety" are different.

WHat are your other needs kiwitt ?
Needs to be a saloon/hatchback ?
What about something as extreme as a caterham or cheaper copy ??
That's about as far to the fun and less safety add ons as you get ... but less "practical" !

MX-5 ( chose the right variant ) is an obvious one for a 2 seater with more practicality and safety features and still able to have the fun.

Also all the modern cars have ways of turning off the "safety" features that get in the way of "fun" and wrt the RX-8 is a wolf and a sheep Find the secret button sequence and turn off ALL of the help and you have a car that is competitive on track. Turn it back on and it's "safe" for that early morning half asleep toodle in the rain Most of the modern hatches have similar. So if investigating/testing it's worth remembering you can remove the "nanny" when you want to -- but you dont get to remove the weight THough I've investigated removing the aircon on the '8

Do you need the 4WD ? It's an easy way to drop a LOT of weight and thus need less power but THEN needs you to be a "better driver" as 4WD hides a lot of sins -- as does all the DSC, smart diffs etc. OPens up a lot more car choices and ones cheaper to service !

Others have listed some of the good cars, but maybe still on the expensive side.

Hard to advise specifics, but hope these comments guide the considerations

EDIT: As henk4 asks, how much "normal" is imprtant versus the not-quote-so-normal pushing through the twisties enjoying te need to "drive" rather than "guide" ???

[FastDriver]

I think he is looking for a car that handles well, but has no safety features so if he crashes he will be killed... hence the no crumble zone or airbags. maybe he wants a peel p50... "The crumple zone is your knees" - J Clarkson

[Matra et Alpine]

Nah FD, guilty of the classic logic problem
They are not mutually exclusive , it's venn diagram with LARGE overlap !!
A bit like Clarkson's ego and the sun

[FastDriver]

Nah FD, guilty of the classic logic problem
They are not mutually exclusive , it's venn diagram with LARGE overlap !!
A bit like Clarkson's ego and the sun

but its a BMW! haha!!!

[Matra et Alpine]

... what's a BMW ?

[FastDriver]

... what's a BMW ?

It was a joke. its like a mini bmw isetta! haha...

[kiwitt]

A car that has appeared just now on my radar is the VVTi-L version of this



140kw (190hp) and about 1100kg. The basic version has only 140 hp.