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Thread: New Opel/Vauxhall flagship in the cards

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    I doubt sales forecasts were even in consideration when the Phaeton was green lighted. Forget about marketing, competition, price tag or badge. In objective terms the Phaeton was possibly the best F-Segment saloon money could buy, at least at launch. That it wasn't exciting or didn't have the right badge is besides the point. The Phaeton didn't deserve commercial failure, and I'd argue that if it didn't capture the public's imagination, it was the (potential) customer's fault not the car's.

    You can also add the Lancia Thesis to your list. Also a seriously underrated car, a future classic and the last real Lancia by the looks of things...
    Ah, the Thesis... now that is a COMPLETLEY different peace of meat. It may even be the complete opposite of the Phaeton, but it's very controverse design, the (at least for modern cars) non-existent reputation of Lancia and the lack of big engines made it a programmed fail, too. Sad, yes, but not suprising.
    Of course it's the customers fault that the Phaeton failed, but as I already said, being good isn't enough in the luxury department. Just look at Maybach (I know, their exterior design is crappy, but if you ignore that, it's the best luxury car on the market).

    However... I'll give you a single example for a working scheme: Fisker.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Just to keep things clear, the Phaeton is not a rebadged Audi. They only share the drivetrain at most. And the V10 TDi couldn't be had anywhere else (except for the Touareg).
    That's true, but US marketing was weak and because of their similar size and drivetrain most assumed it was an Audi. Targeting the same market was VW's mistake. And naturally, we weren't offered the V10TDi.
    Never own more cars than you can keep charged batteries in...

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore GS/E View Post
    Ah, the Thesis... now that is a COMPLETLEY different peace of meat. It may even be the complete opposite of the Phaeton, but it's very controverse design, the (at least for modern cars) non-existent reputation of Lancia and the lack of big engines made it a programmed fail, too. Sad, yes, but not suprising.
    Of course it's the customers fault that the Phaeton failed, but as I already said, being good isn't enough in the luxury department. Just look at Maybach (I know, their exterior design is crappy, but if you ignore that, it's the best luxury car on the market).

    However... I'll give you a single example for a working scheme: Fisker.
    The Thesis was indeed controversial but another great car that met undeserved failure. It did have big(ish) engines, the Busso V6, but probably the engine to have was the turbo five, which made it pretty much the last bespoke Lancia we will probably ever see. As you say though, it didn't fail because of the controversial engineering, but because of the badge and marketing. a Daimler executive once said that when it was launched they considered it the E-Class biggest rival, but then it was all lost.

    I disagree that the Maybach belongs on the same category as the Phaeton, the Thesis or even the Avantime. Unlike those the Maybach was marketing first, engineering second. Yes it was given the best available (even if many bits and pieces were probably carried over from the S-Class) but it doesn't feel as special as the others.

    As for the Fisker, I'd say than in terms of production, sales and profits it still pretty much an unknown quantity at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by csl177 View Post
    That's true, but US marketing was weak and because of their similar size and drivetrain most assumed it was an Audi. Targeting the same market was VW's mistake. And naturally, we weren't offered the V10TDi.
    Did the US get the 6 cylinder? Because that would've made a pretty much 100% VW as well.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  4. #19
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    No, just the V8 and W12.
    Never own more cars than you can keep charged batteries in...

  5. #20
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    Well then I guess it's W12 or nothing, although the V8 sort of started life as the 1781cc engine under the bonnet of the Mk 1 Golf GTI...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

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