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Thread: The State of The Car

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by culver View Post
    I've wondered about the back story there. Certainly when the development was under way it was known the chassis would be used for both cars. Did Chrysler do some, none, most, etc of the work?
    "According to Inside Line, Dodge was indeed working on a new Viper when then corporate partner Daimler got involved in the project to use it to co-develop the SLS. Later, the Viper side of the development was dropped when Chrysler got into financial trouble.

    Dodge engineers got as far as building an aluminum chassis for the model as well as creating a new suspension."

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
    Which ones then? Are they European only?
    Here is a quick list of relatively cheap modern cars that I fancy.

    Peugeot 508
    Fiat 500 Twinair
    Citroen DS3
    VW Scirocco
    Honda CRZ
    Renault Laguna Coupe
    Cadillac CTS
    AR Giulietta
    Chrysler 300
    Peugeot RCZ
    Audi A5 Sportback
    Fiat Punto Evo Abarth
    Ford Fiesta
    Renault Twingo RS
    Citroen DS5
    Ford Mustang
    VW Golf GTI
    Opel Insignia
    Mazda MX5
    Audi A1
    Mini

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
    Which ones then? Are they European only?

    There are a few I am interested around $30,000, but only a few.

    Man you are way too picky, under $30k we are not exactly lacking choice, family car, sporty, or otherwise....
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
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  4. #19
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    One problem I see is corn subsidies. We all know it doesn't work now, so why are we still siphoning off valuable tax dollars for something we know won't work?

    The excuse is that to win Iowa in the elections is to appease all the hick corn growers. It's time to put politics aside and put the country first, a lot like a billion other problems the US has.
    Subsidy ends 12/31/11 after far far too long.

  5. #20
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    Jetta/Golf, Astra/Cruze and Civic are clear examples why the world car principle doesn't work. Also, I can think of at least two recent(ish) that didn't work either, the Palio and the original Mondeo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post
    Here is a quick list of relatively cheap modern cars that I fancy.

    Peugeot 508
    Fiat 500 Twinair
    Citroen DS3
    VW Scirocco
    Honda CRZ
    Renault Laguna Coupe
    Cadillac CTS
    AR Giulietta
    Chrysler 300
    Peugeot RCZ
    Audi A5 Sportback
    Fiat Punto Evo Abarth
    Ford Fiesta
    Renault Twingo RS
    Citroen DS5
    Ford Mustang
    VW Golf GTI
    Opel Insignia
    Mazda MX5
    Audi A1
    Mini
    I disagree on the 508, the Audis and the Fiesta. The CTS and 300 clearly aren't 30 grand cars, and the Mustang wouldn't be if it came under Ford's oficial wing (see Camaro, which is going on sale next month...).
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  6. #21
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    VW does not seem to be embracing the world car idea at all. They are diverging from it. They have cars meant for Europe, NA, SA, and Asia as I understand it.

    I think maybe a world car is not a bad idea, as long as you tweak things like engines, suspension, interior, for each specific market, which is what is being done.

  7. #22
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    But if you tweak things like engines, suspension, interior, for each specific market, isn't that pretty much designing a new car for each market?
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    But if you tweak things like engines, suspension, interior, for each specific market, isn't that pretty much designing a new car for each market?

    Its all in the platform, the "same car" is just what can be built on the same line. Toyota/Honda et al have been doing this for years. In that pretty much all Toyota plant can build any Toyota in the world, something that GM cannot, at least they can't before. Specific tuning exists even for a particular car in the same market anyway, a car with "sports" suspension will have different parts to a normal one, but they are still the same car. The most expensive thing for a car in most cases is the tooling for stamping metal, by being able to share those, doing 1 engineering process instead of 5-6, you are saving a TON of money....
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  9. #24
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    But then again, Toyota and Honda have different cars for different markets. How many parts do the EDM and USDM Accord share? Or the EDM and the USDM Civic? Or the Camry and the Avensis? Or the Corolla and the Auris?
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  10. #25
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    WIth the Honda I think the problem was they had to make the Accord BIGGER to compete in the US. So started the "split" and the US had a car based on an older larger car chassis. Swindon added a European styling and suspension spring/damper but not really much else. So shared all the costs.
    The major cost for cars is at the design phase. Billions of dolllars will be spent to develop the safety cell and suspension. A steel stamper for a body panel will cost 100K and amortized over 100s of thousands of cars. So we see some markets use "older" designs because they are known to work.
    If you have a factory in a region there is no real benefit in sharing after the design/test phase as eg a stamper can be machined in a local supplier, so can add local differences. Same with plastics suppliers in the main.
    Especially now with the cost of transport an issue local supply can be a greater advantage.
    So I see a difference between a "world car" design and chassis and the final car.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revo View Post
    Here is a quick list of relatively cheap modern cars that I fancy.

    Peugeot 508
    Fiat 500 Twinair
    Citroen DS3
    VW Scirocco
    Honda CRZ
    Renault Laguna Coupe
    Cadillac CTS
    AR Giulietta
    Chrysler 300
    Peugeot RCZ
    Audi A5 Sportback
    Fiat Punto Evo Abarth
    Ford Fiesta
    Renault Twingo RS
    Citroen DS5
    Ford Mustang
    VW Golf GTI
    Opel Insignia
    Mazda MX5
    Audi A1
    Mini
    That's not a bad selection, but at least 11 of those cars are not available in the US market.

    Coupes are out of the question for me- not enough room = definitely not a CR-Z.

    The CTS I don't like too much, ditto for the Chrysler 300.

    The one car that might be perfect for me would be a TSX wagon. Starts at $30,960.

    Edit-

    A Subaru Impreza WRX might be reasonable for $30K.

    Actually, you can't get a STI for 30K anymore...

    Mazdaspeed 3 and Miata are both under 30K, but no 2 doors for me.
    Last edited by NSXType-R; 08-14-2011 at 06:03 AM.

  12. #27
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    MS3 is a 5 door only, and its a decent size car....

    Mitsubishi Ralliart Sportsback is a 5 door car also. GTI/Golf/TDI is also a car in that class.

    Curious though, why do you need the room?

    Ferrer as Matra said, much of the cost is in the R&D phase, much of the stuff, just because the car may look different, it does not mean that they are different. Suspension components stamping, casting mold, brake system , backbond/subframe tooling, all those are being shared by various model in these cars designed for all the market. The key for an OEM to do when they started out to do this process of unifying their design, is to get all the differing standard around, and build one out of those, one that will satisfy the basic criteria in required testing for localization. Then you just need to do one. As opposed to going through all of the EV/DV whatever testing for 5-6 different cars of the same size, you do it for 1, and that is the bulk of the cost for a development process. Yes you will still have localized spending, but that cost is much less vs having local doing all of their own R&D work. You can have the EU car tuned for response and NA car tuned for isolation, with US car runs on some big Gas V6 and EU car run a 4 cylinder diesel. They can still be sharing the suspension parts, back bone chassis, braking system, driveline components, gas tanks...etc

    In VW's case too, yes Jetta in US has torsion beam axle and EU has a IRS, but you can bet you can take the beam straight out and swap for a EU IRS if needed(and in the case of the GLI, which is still build in the same plant, they are doing exactly that, what VW is saving is the BOM cost, reduced part count to boost margin). While Passat now is being heavily regionalized, VW is probably justifying that through the size of the US mid-size market....thats where the bulk of the US market is. At the same time the US Passat still shares much of the parts with the rest of the world car, just riding on a longer unibody....knowing VW they may well find another use for that chassis outside of US...
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  13. #28
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    Here's something severely wrong with the state of the car. This commercial asks, 'Where has performance in cars gone?'...then they illustrate that performance is back but in a SUV....not a Viper.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr2aANJxZLQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr2aANJxZLQ[/ame]

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    MS3 is a 5 door only, and its a decent size car....

    Mitsubishi Ralliart Sportsback is a 5 door car also. GTI/Golf/TDI is also a car in that class.

    Curious though, why do you need the room?
    I dorm at a college and I'd like to get mostly everything in one go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino Scuderia View Post
    Here's something severely wrong with the state of the car. This commercial asks, 'Where has performance in cars gone?'...then they illustrate that performance is back but in a SUV....not a Viper.
    I saw that commercial with my father. We were both very appalled.

    Maybe they should be directing us at Dodge Challengers, but not a Durango. I'd buy a SUV if I wanted one.

    That was one of the most confusing commercials I had ever seen, especially when they harp on how sporty a Durango is and then end the commercial on a towing statistic.

    That's a waste of tax dollars.

    Imported from Detroit!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    Ferrer as Matra said, much of the cost is in the R&D phase, much of the stuff, just because the car may look different, it does not mean that they are different. Suspension components stamping, casting mold, brake system , backbond/subframe tooling, all those are being shared by various model in these cars designed for all the market. The key for an OEM to do when they started out to do this process of unifying their design, is to get all the differing standard around, and build one out of those, one that will satisfy the basic criteria in required testing for localization. Then you just need to do one. As opposed to going through all of the EV/DV whatever testing for 5-6 different cars of the same size, you do it for 1, and that is the bulk of the cost for a development process. Yes you will still have localized spending, but that cost is much less vs having local doing all of their own R&D work. You can have the EU car tuned for response and NA car tuned for isolation, with US car runs on some big Gas V6 and EU car run a 4 cylinder diesel. They can still be sharing the suspension parts, back bone chassis, braking system, driveline components, gas tanks...etc

    In VW's case too, yes Jetta in US has torsion beam axle and EU has a IRS, but you can bet you can take the beam straight out and swap for a EU IRS if needed(and in the case of the GLI, which is still build in the same plant, they are doing exactly that, what VW is saving is the BOM cost, reduced part count to boost margin). While Passat now is being heavily regionalized, VW is probably justifying that through the size of the US mid-size market....thats where the bulk of the US market is. At the same time the US Passat still shares much of the parts with the rest of the world car, just riding on a longer unibody....knowing VW they may well find another use for that chassis outside of US...
    I do not disagree that cars that are apparently very different actually share many parts inside, and actually not cars from one manufacturer, but from different manufacturers and industrial groups as well, due to sharing the same suppliers.

    Still that doesn't detract from the fact that a good number of manufacturers use cars that clearly different in terms of hardware for one market or the other. The aforementioned Hondas and Toyotas are a case in point. even when cars are available in different parts of the world, it's clear which one is the big player in each part, the i30/Elantra being a clear example of this.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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