The State of The Car

[crisis]

I thought Peugeot was always cool but I never found the appeal of their cars.

Other than being French and different, what else is cool about them anyway?

Being french and different only makes them annoying. I agree with your other bit though. ;-)

[henk4]

Being french and different only makes them annoying.

any desire to elaborate?

[crisis]

any desire to elaborate?

I’ve never met a French car I’ve liked and there appears to be an predilection to quirkiness, almost for its own sake, which I find somewhat pretentious. This is of course a huge generalization and my disdain for French cars is matched only by my general ignorance of them.

Of course the fact that Renault sponsor my Aussie Rules football team is a vexing. Cheers for the cash though.

[henk4]

I’ve never met a French car I’ve liked and there appears to be an predilection to quirkiness, almost for its own sake, which I find somewhat pretentious. This is of course a huge generalization and my disdain for French cars is matched only by my general ignorance of them.

Of course the fact that Renault sponsor my Aussie Rules football team is a vexing. Cheers for the cash though.

of course...the same reason why I don't like Australian cars

[crisis]

of course...the same reason why I don't like Australian cars

And it’s of course horses for courses. The French do not make rear wheel drive V8 sedans which float my boat. If I just want a commuter I can get a front wheel drive 4 cylinder anything and much cheaper especially in Australia than anything from Europe.

[henk4]

And it’s of course horses for courses. The French do not make rear wheel drive V8 sedans which float my boat. If I just want a commuter I can get a front wheel drive 4 cylinder anything and much cheaper especially in Australia than anything from Europe.

The V8 sedans your are talking about are made by Americans, and if I am not mistaken they will stop producing them in a short while. Like Ford did in France but only like 60 years ago (things take a little longer down under obviously). This is the Ford/Simca Versailles V8, from the mid fifties...Can't you buy the V6 C5 in Australia?

[crisis]

The V8 sedans your are talking about are made by Americans, and if I am not mistaken they will stop producing them in a short while. Like Ford did in France but only like 60 years ago (things take a little longer down under obviously). This is the Ford/Simca Versailles V8, from the mid fifties...Can't you buy the V6 C5 in Australia?

Negative. We make the V8 sedans for the US in the form of the Chev SS which is a Commodore made here in Adelaide. But yes we will stop making them in 2017 if not earlier and we will be poorer for it. We will then be left with Holden badged Daewoo’s and Ford Focuses. All front wheel drive and utterly uninspiring for me. Too bad. I will eventually get myself another Monaro CV8. Don’t need a “new” car really.



Um, no. If I really wanted a front wheel drive V6 I would get a Toyota.

[henk4]

Negative. We make the V8 sedans for the US in the form of the Chev SS which is a Commodore made here in Adelaide. But yes we will stop making them in 2017 if not earlier and we will be poorer for it. We will then be left with Holden badged Daewoo’s and Ford Focuses. All front wheel drive and utterly uninspiring for me. Too bad. I will eventually get myself another Monaro CV8. Don’t need a “new” car really.



Um, no. If I really wanted a front wheel drive V6 I would get a Toyota.

that is the previous C5 model, which was replaced in 2008.

I thought Ford and Holden were American owned companies, and hence GM used Holden to outsource the production of the Chevy, and they will stop doing so.

and to support your views about quirkiness, here is what the French can for a 4 door sedan. It does not have a V8 though, but a V12.

[crisis]

that is the previous C5 model, which was replaced in 2008.

I thought Ford and Holden were American owned companies, and hence GM used Holden to outsource the production of the Chevy, and they will stop doing so.

Holden have designed Commodores in Australia for quite some time. The original Commodore was designed off of a Opel Senator I believe but the design has been done in Australia since the 90s. There was no comparative model in the US other than when they imported Commodores, Statesmans and Monaros. In fact I don’t think GM had a rear wheel drive sedan for quite some time. It is a little bizarre that a small market like Australia were allowed such freedom but there you go.

and to support your views about quirkiness, here is what the French can for a 4 door sedan. It does not have a V8 though, but a V12.

was it ever produced and if so was it ever sold?

[henk4]

Holden have designed Commodores in Australia for quite some time. The original Commodore was designed off of a Opel Senator I believe but the design has been done in Australia since the 90s. There was no comparative model in the US other than when they imported Commodores, Statesmans and Monaros. In fact I don’t think GM had a rear wheel drive sedan for quite some time. It is a little bizarre that a small market like Australia were allowed such freedom but there you go.

was it ever produced and if so was it ever sold?

Caddys are RWD at least the larger ones...and no, the peugeot was a concept, they had some spare engines left from this one

2007 - 2010 Peugeot 908 HDi FAP - Images, Specifications and Information

[Ferrer]

Well, if we are honest France has never been the land of rear wheel drive and big powerful engines. Pundits will nevertheless mention prewar Bugattis, Talbots and Delages, but these are just the tip of the iceberg of France's 130+ years of automotive history. Even the Ford Vedette (and all its relatives and Simca variants) were fully designed in the US initially and were powered by versions of Ford's flathead V8 engine until the sixties.

So France has mainly concentrated on the front wheel drive four cylinder engined cars. However discarding them just because of that is a huge mistake. There are many French classics and contemporary cars which are masterpieces and readily to be enjoyed by anyone who considers himself a car enthusiast. I'm thinking of cars like the Simca 1000 Rallye, the Peugeot 504 V6 Coupé, the Peugeot 205 GTI, the Peugeot 106 GTI, the Citroën DS and CX, the Citroën SM, the Citroën C6, the Renault 8 Gordini, the Renault 5 GT Turbo, various hot Clios and Meganes or several Alpines just to name a few cars.

[crisis]

Well, if we are honest France has never been the land of rear wheel drive and big powerful engines. Pundits will nevertheless mention prewar Bugattis, Talbots and Delages, but these are just the tip of the iceberg of France's 130+ years of automotive history. Even the Ford Vedette (and all its relatives and Simca variants) were fully designed in the US initially and were powered by versions of Ford's flathead V8 engine until the sixties.

So France has mainly concentrated on the front wheel drive four cylinder engined cars. However discarding them just because of that is a huge mistake. There are many French classics and contemporary cars which are masterpieces and readily to be enjoyed by anyone who considers himself a car enthusiast. I'm thinking of cars like the Simca 1000 Rallye, the Peugeot 504 V6 Coupé, the Peugeot 205 GTI, the Peugeot 106 GTI, the Citroën DS and CX, the Citroën SM, the Citroën C6, the Renault 8 Gordini, the Renault 5 GT Turbo, various hot Clios and Meganes or several Alpines just to name a few cars.

Peugeots, Renaults etc have such a bad name for reliability here. Citroens just annoy the crap out of me. Call me a Neanderthal but I have never driven a front wheel drive car that ever felt enjoyable. The idea that you have to thrash the guts out of a tiny engine and drive like a shower of shit to enjoy the thing is not an experience that you can have in the real world every day. To me they are a means of commuting. On the other hand a rear wheel drive V8 Commodore or derivative, especially manual, is a physical experience. A punch on the back when you jam the throttle, a sound to die for if done properly, and the ability to steer through the back wheels as opposed to drive thought front. And up until now all done at a very reasonable price. Less than most of that which you listed above I’ll wager.
No one is right or wrong. It’s what you are used to and what floats your boat.
BTW have you ever driven a Commodore/Vauxhall V8 RWD? A mate of mine who emigrated from England owned a Golf GTI turbo whatever in the motherland. He told me how great it was. He went for a drive in my LS1 SV8 VY Commodore. He texted his mates in Pommyland immediately he had finished. It blew his mind.

[henk4]

Peugeots, Renaults etc have such a bad name for reliability here. Citroens just annoy the crap out of me. Call me a Neanderthal but I have never driven a front wheel drive car that ever felt enjoyable. The idea that you have to thrash the guts out of a tiny engine and drive like a shower of shit to enjoy the thing is not an experience that you can have in the real world every day. To me they are a means of commuting. On the other hand a rear wheel drive V8 Commodore or derivative, especially manual, is a physical experience. A punch on the back when you jam the throttle, a sound to die for if done properly, and the ability to steer through the back wheels as opposed to drive thought front. And up until now all done at a very reasonable price. Less than most of that which you listed above I’ll wager.
No one is right or wrong. It’s what you are used to and what floats your boat.
BTW have you ever driven a Commodore/Vauxhall V8 RWD? A mate of mine who emigrated from England owned a Golf GTI turbo whatever in the motherland. He told me how great it was. He went for a drive in my LS1 SV8 VY Commodore. He texted his mates in Pommyland immediately he had finished. It blew his mind.

a Golf is a German car, so your rant against French cars should be adjusted accordingly....and we had the dubious pleasure a couple of years ago to drive a Mustang GT (the V8 version) for about two weeks in California. Yes, the initial fun of having all that power was there, but it started to get boring pretty quickly, and the feeling of a very stiff suspension and lack of any comfort took over very rapidly...

[Ferrer]

Peugeots, Renaults etc have such a bad name for reliability here. Citroens just annoy the crap out of me. Call me a Neanderthal but I have never driven a front wheel drive car that ever felt enjoyable. The idea that you have to thrash the guts out of a tiny engine and drive like a shower of shit to enjoy the thing is not an experience that you can have in the real world every day. To me they are a means of commuting. On the other hand a rear wheel drive V8 Commodore or derivative, especially manual, is a physical experience. A punch on the back when you jam the throttle, a sound to die for if done properly, and the ability to steer through the back wheels as opposed to drive thought front. And up until now all done at a very reasonable price. Less than most of that which you listed above I’ll wager.
No one is right or wrong. It’s what you are used to and what floats your boat.
BTW have you ever driven a Commodore/Vauxhall V8 RWD? A mate of mine who emigrated from England owned a Golf GTI turbo whatever in the motherland. He told me how great it was. He went for a drive in my LS1 SV8 VY Commodore. He texted his mates in Pommyland immediately he had finished. It blew his mind.

I haven't driven a V8 Commodore or Falcon, or any other muscle car for that matter; but I have driven cars with 3, 4, 6 and 8 cylinders; cars with front, four and rear wheel drive; manual and automatic (torque converter, dual clutch, CVT and automated manuals); cars from three different continents; even hybrids and electrics.

And if I have learnt one thing is to not judge a car from (never mind badge or name) spec sheet. I have driven brilliantly entertaining front wheel drive cars (Twingo RS, Cooper S) and completely disappointing rear wheel drive cars (all modern BMWs); fast fours (BMW 328i) and slow V8s (Jag XF). And I could go on and on.

In our heads we all have our ideal, clean sheet car (mine has rear wheel drive and a straight six), but if all cars were the same we would grow bored of even our favouritest layouts. Variety is good, because conditions vary and I think that a good petrolhead should know how to appreciate different types of cars.

I mean a ride in a Citroën with hydroneumatic suspension for a long cruise can be as pleasurable as a quick sideways blast in a V8-engined F-Type Jag. Closing your mind and refusing to try or consider other cars because they are out of your comfort zone makes you car world poorer. Enrich it by trying something you'd never normally do with an open mind!

[crisis]

a Golf is a German car, so your rant against French cars should be adjusted accordingly....and we had the dubious pleasure a couple of years ago to drive a Mustang GT (the V8 version) for about two weeks in California. Yes, the initial fun of having all that power was there, but it started to get boring pretty quickly, and the feeling of a very stiff suspension and lack of any comfort took over very rapidly...

Well aside from the fact that my rant did have a bit of tongue in cheek the mention of the Golf was intended as a comparison with front wheel drive cars which is where the conversation had turned. While I have no desire to own a Golf I have been informed they are impressive in their own way. The fact is that it had been rather iconic to my mate and an example of one fo the most powerful/impressive cars he had driven. That is all.
Never driven a Mustang but from what I understand their (US) idea of suspension and handling differs from ours. That said I enjoy the relative stiffness of the Holden sports suspension. Still to each their own.

In our heads we all have our ideal, clean sheet car (mine has rear wheel drive and a straight six), but if all cars were the same we would grow bored of even our favouritest layouts. Variety is good, because conditions vary and I think that a good petrolhead should know how to appreciate different types of cars. I mean a ride in a Citroën with hydroneumatic suspension for a long cruise can be as pleasurable as a quick sideways blast in a V8-engined F-Type Jag. Closing your mind and refusing to try or consider other cars because they are out of your comfort zone makes you car world poorer. Enrich it by trying something you'd never normally do with an open mind!

I’m not sure if one is necessarily required to “appreciate” different types of cars but one should have experienced a few to make a judgment. I think I explained my dislike for French cars is equaled only by my ignorance. I think the only one I ever drove was a Peugeot 205 or similar. I have however owned and driven many different types of cars also and enough front drives, 4s and 6s, to know where my preference lies.
Being a music lover I am reminded of an article I read in a HiFi magazine that included a CD full of “World Music”. It implored the reader, almost to the point of threatening them, to “open one’s mind” and listen to this style and see what it had to offer. I did and I didn’t like it. But there was a feeling of almost guilt that I didn’t “get it” as though I was being deliberately ignorant. Despite my love for music I conversely can’t stand most country, R&B and Rap music.
But again there is no definitive right or wrong, just personal preference.