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Thread: The State of The Car

  1. #931
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    So Nissan (Renault?) is taking a majority stake in Mitsubishi.

    I'm not sure whether Nissan took over Renault or Renault took over Nissan actually.

    But I guess now we can hope for an Evolution successor...? Or at least entry back into rally racing perhaps...?

  2. #932
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    This, and the VW scandal, tell you to not screw around with certain regulators. Mitsubishi would likely still be majority owned by its parent company if it did not partake in these stupid shenanigans, and VW may have to shell out billions of dollars to owners, dealers, the EPA, and CARB. Sales in the US for VW could really be dinged, and diesel in the US (hell, even Europe soon it looks like) for passenger cars may die down.

  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    This, and the VW scandal, tell you to not screw around with certain regulators. Mitsubishi would likely still be majority owned by its parent company if it did not partake in these stupid shenanigans, and VW may have to shell out billions of dollars to owners, dealers, the EPA, and CARB. Sales in the US for VW could really be dinged, and diesel in the US (hell, even Europe soon it looks like) for passenger cars may die down.
    I wonder if this is Mitsubishi proper or just the automotive division, because Mitsubishi makes heavy machinery like ships and earth moving equipment... and air conditioners. I thought Mitsubishi was a massive, massive company and would be able to weather this sort of thing. I guess not.

    Personally, there wasn't much to lose at Mitsubishi, now that the Evolution is dead anyway, so I don't see any big deal. Likewise, only 4-5 people in the USA probably bought their cars, so while I can see the EPA making them pay a penalty, it can't be anywhere as big as VW's as they probably sold more cars in the US.

  4. #934
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    Mitsubishi Motor Corp. is part held by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Mitsubishi's Bank, and directly by Mitsubishi Corp. (aka Mitsubishi Group, the parent keiretsu). And it is huge. It's market cap on the Tokyo Stock Exchange is about 3 Trillion Yen, or 27.5 B USD (Toyota is the largest traded in Tokyo at 18 T Yen).

    To further Americanify/contextualize, the largest company internationally by market cap is Apple at 480 B USD. You'd have to guess the parent company is OK with Nissan's input cuz - speaking out my backside a bit here - they likely would have the muscle to regain a controlling interest if they so desired.

  5. #935
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    The rest of Mitsubishi maintain a 30% interest in MMC, Nissan has a 34% interest in MMC (effectively a controlling stake), Renault has a 43.4% interest in Nissan and Nissan as a 15% non-voting interest in Renault. Nissan will have 4 board members in MMC, including the chairman.

    Easy!

    And no, there will be no return to Rally. Ghosn don't race. MMC will supply small cheap cars through Asia and crossovers everywhere else, increasingly on Renault/Nissan platforms for the crossovers (and Lancer?) and maintain their Kei and small/cheap platform elsewhere. Is my guess anyway.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  6. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimento View Post
    Ghosn don't race.
    Ya know how everyone begs for innovation and new technology in racing? 'Member when Nissan gave all that free reign to Ben Bowlby and spent all that money on the Nissan GT-R LM Nismo for race only to lose spectacularly and cancel the program? How'd that work for everyone?


    Ok, maybe this dodges the main complaint of racing fans that strict regulations are the problem; but it seems that if you try a massive innovation in a strict regulation regime, maybe its not for the best. To be fair to Carlos, Renault-Nissan do have a variety of racing programs (GT3, F1, Super GT etc.).

  7. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Mitsubishi Motor Corp. is part held by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Mitsubishi's Bank, and directly by Mitsubishi Corp. (aka Mitsubishi Group, the parent keiretsu). And it is huge. It's market cap on the Tokyo Stock Exchange is about 3 Trillion Yen, or 27.5 B USD (Toyota is the largest traded in Tokyo at 18 T Yen).

    To further Americanify/contextualize, the largest company internationally by market cap is Apple at 480 B USD. You'd have to guess the parent company is OK with Nissan's input cuz - speaking out my backside a bit here - they likely would have the muscle to regain a controlling interest if they so desired.
    Yeah, I knew that Mitsubishi is massive, but that's still really complicated haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by pimento View Post
    The rest of Mitsubishi maintain a 30% interest in MMC, Nissan has a 34% interest in MMC (effectively a controlling stake), Renault has a 43.4% interest in Nissan and Nissan as a 15% non-voting interest in Renault. Nissan will have 4 board members in MMC, including the chairman.

    Easy!

    And no, there will be no return to Rally. Ghosn don't race. MMC will supply small cheap cars through Asia and crossovers everywhere else, increasingly on Renault/Nissan platforms for the crossovers (and Lancer?) and maintain their Kei and small/cheap platform elsewhere. Is my guess anyway.
    Ghosn is weird, he makes all these Matra-Alpine concepts and doesn't do much with them.

    There is the Gran Turismo Academy stuff, so they do go racing. And I think they do have some nice heritage collection in Zama... but that's about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
    Ya know how everyone begs for innovation and new technology in racing? 'Member when Nissan gave all that free reign to Ben Bowlby and spent all that money on the Nissan GT-R LM Nismo for race only to lose spectacularly and cancel the program? How'd that work for everyone?


    Ok, maybe this dodges the main complaint of racing fans that strict regulations are the problem; but it seems that if you try a massive innovation in a strict regulation regime, maybe its not for the best. To be fair to Carlos, Renault-Nissan do have a variety of racing programs (GT3, F1, Super GT etc.).
    The Nissan GT-R LM last year was so much fail. I felt so bad for Nissan during that race. I wonder why they hyped it so much, I'm sure even if they couldn't test at Le Mans they could have tested at a racetrack where Audi and Toyota ran LMP1 cars. Nissan was so off pace that it was ridiculous.

  8. #938
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    The GTR-LM is an interesting case study. Basically they had a concept that required a lot of development time, then were told to make it quickly for about half as much money as they needed, then were forced to race it a year before the team had planned, then the powers that be were surprised that it didn't work real well, then pulled the plug on it. I don't know how the programme got off the ground to start with, but it was pretty clearly not a priority for those in charge.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  9. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
    So Nissan (Renault?) is taking a majority stake in Mitsubishi.

    I'm not sure whether Nissan took over Renault or Renault took over Nissan actually.

    But I guess now we can hope for an Evolution successor...? Or at least entry back into rally racing perhaps...?
    I wish to see a successor to the 3000GT and Eclipse, but that might just be a pipe dream.

  10. #940
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimento View Post
    The GTR-LM is an interesting case study. Basically they had a concept that required a lot of development time, then were told to make it quickly for about half as much money as they needed, then were forced to race it a year before the team had planned, then the powers that be were surprised that it didn't work real well, then pulled the plug on it. I don't know how the programme got off the ground to start with, but it was pretty clearly not a priority for those in charge.
    I'm not sure what all the rush was, any sort of racing program like that has got to cost major $$$. It probably could have benefitted from an extra year of development. All that money down the drain, and with nothing to show.

    Actually, now that I think about it, the Nissan Delta Wing is also a major failure as well. I wonder if the head of the Nissan LMP1 also was taking care of the Delta Wing stuff too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trailbreaker View Post
    I wish to see a successor to the 3000GT and Eclipse, but that might just be a pipe dream.
    Mitsubishi made such cool cars in the late 80's and early 90's. The Galant, the Diamonte, the Pajero, the Eclipse, and the Starion were weird, quirky cars. Maybe they weren't the best made and all, but I loved seeing them in Jackie Chan movies.

    At least they were different. They are probably by far the weakest automaker in the US probably, with Mazda not too far behind I would imagine, although VW probably has a bigger problem in general, along with Chrysler/Fiat.

    Speaking of which, does VW actually have a probable end game to the Dieselgate issue? I don't see any good solution at all to that.
    Last edited by NSXType-R; 05-30-2016 at 01:15 PM.

  11. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
    I'm not sure what all the rush was, any sort of racing program like that has got to cost major $$$. It probably could have benefitted from an extra year of development. All that money down the drain, and with nothing to show.

    Actually, now that I think about it, the Nissan Delta Wing is also a major failure as well. I wonder if the head of the Nissan LMP1 also was taking care of the Delta Wing stuff too.



    Mitsubishi made such cool cars in the late 80's and early 90's. The Galant, the Diamonte, the Pajero, the Eclipse, and the Starion were weird, quirky cars. Maybe they weren't the best made and all, but I loved seeing them in Jackie Chan movies.

    At least they were different. They are probably by far the weakest automaker in the US probably, with Mazda not too far behind I would imagine, although VW probably has a bigger problem in general, along with Chrysler/Fiat.

    Speaking of which, does VW actually have a probable end game to the Dieselgate issue? I don't see any good solution at all to that.
    I thought I read on some blogs that VW was going to buy back diesel cars at least in North America, but I'm not really quite sure if that is indeed the case.

    I used to love diesels, but even before dieselgate I always questioned if getting a diesel hatchback was really all that much better than a gasoline powered one. I do like the idea of not having to deal with sparkplugs, but I just prefer the sound and the way gasoline engines drive over their diesel counterparts.

  12. #942
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    I think the new CAFE is a smokescreen for obama's real mission - to change America into a 3rd world banana republic. He has followed through on his promise of hope & change. I was just hoping it wouldn't be changed to what I knew he had in mind, but it was not to be. I believe in American exceptionalism and CAFE isn't the final nail in the coffin, but it does put us at a disadvantage that will take time to overcome. I just hate to see the US pushed further down the list of the world manufacturers. I agree the Mustang is a world class muscle car. I don't know what the sales numbers are for international sales but I hope they are taking off. The Mustang is such a huge bargain. In a country where a "sports car" is generally considered a Corvette - an awesome car, very successful at racing in all categories it chooses to race vigorously. But IMO it is not a sports car in the traditional sense - IMO it is just too large. Hmm.. I wonder hpow a 4 wheel drive Mustang (like a Porsche Turbo) would be received?
    Last edited by l_turn9; 06-01-2016 at 05:27 AM. Reason: correct errors

  13. #943
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    The Mustang is far bigger than the Corvette, isn't it? It is also the best selling sports coupé in the world.

    Ford Mustang Becomes The Planets Best-Selling Sports Coupe For 2015

    I'd love to have one, a GT hardtop. I doubt it'd fit anywhere, I don't how it'd handle +100mph motoring and fuel consumption would be abysmal. But a big normally aspirated V8 for an attainable price is most definitely a yes.

    On the other hand, Mitsubishi has a completely forgettable line-up and so does Nissan. I was at a Nissan dealer this Saturday (for unrelated work reasons) and all I could see was a plethora of utterly boring SUVs and small hatchbacks. There was even a ghastly white and red Juke with a 117bhp engine and a CVT.

    Oh god.

    However, the 370Z costs 30 grand. I know I shouldn't want one.

    But I do.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  14. #944
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    Now that Nissan/Infiniti has a TT 3.0 V6 to replace the 3.7, maybe we'll see the return of the 300ZX Turbo nameplate?
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  15. #945
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    You know, I'm not sure why people want SUVs. They say they want the room and the space, they could totally buy a wagon. Sure, you're never going to sit as high up as a SUV, but at least they're not totally boring to drive.

    The weirdest thing about car ownership is that people want to look "green" and so they drive a Tesla. Great.

    For those who can't afford a Tesla, they buy a 4WD crossover or a hybrid SUV like the Lexus RX. If they knew anything about drivetrain losses and being green, they would have bought a hybrid sedan, which would have been the far lighter option.

    Gas prices can't stay cheap forever, once they frack everything that can be fracked, gas prices will shoot way back up again.

    I hope Nissan comes back with a new Silvia, because the 370Z is not cheap.

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