The Downfall of Honda (In America)

[jcp123]

Brand loyalty will only get you so far, that's all I'm saying.

Agreed. I think it's gotten them as far as it's going to. Word around here is that a lot more imports are getting traded for domestics as they have effectively caught up in a number of ways.

[RacingManiac]

Further proves my point, Toyota and Honda have nothing exciting going on.

Other than their lack of sports cars (that merely accounts for a small percentage of their decline), they need to redesign some of their core models and provide consumers with a fresh new look. It took me a while to identify a brand new Accord (as the "new" Accord) the other day driving around, it looked like a 5 year old model.

Miata is the most raced/rallied/autox car in the country...aside from people who bench race, most who actually want to buy a car a start racing the next day, a Miata is what they go for. If BRZ/FRS is half as popular as Miata is, the product is a hit....

For all the coolness of Supra/RX7/NSX or whatever, the amount I see in a year is minuscule, and even smaller percentage of that is people who actually do anything sporting with it...

As far as the mainstream car goes, they are what they are, mainstream. They are what basic mode of transportation is supposed to be. You can tell Toyota Honda to design a fresh and exciting looking car, so people will buy them. Then you can have VW who actually made their car more "Toyota/Honda" like, and they are selling better than they ever had in US. We are not their market target, they are not marketing a Camry or Accord to enthusiasts. They are marketing them to someone who just want a car.

TBH too, even these bread and butter car are not like what they are 10 years ago neither. Who can foresee car now, like a 4 cylinder Accord, is a 6.5sec 0-60, 15 sec 1/4 mile car, that can get close to 40MPG?

[jcp123]

Mazda's kind of an anomaly. They are a smaller automaker, which means they don't have huge resources but they are more free and agile. Their cars reflect that.

[Ferrer]

Agreed. I think it's gotten them as far as it's going to. Word around here is that a lot more imports are getting traded for domestics as they have effectively caught up in a number of ways.

It's curious, that domestic v import thing in the US. Here pretty much everything is seen as domestic or import and there are little differences between those distinctions. Only countries with strong automotive conglomerates (and I'd say there are only three, France, Italy and Germany) could actually discuss domestic v imports themes.

TBH too, even these bread and butter car are not like what they are 10 years ago neither. Who can foresee car now, like a 4 cylinder Accord, is a 6.5sec 0-60, 15 sec 1/4 mile car, that can get close to 40MPG?

An entry level mainstream car which can do 0-60 in 6"5 seconds? God, European cars are slow...

Mazda's kind of an anomaly. They are a smaller automaker, which means they don't have huge resources but they are more free and agile. Their cars reflect that.

And they are also usually geared towards the driver. Mazdas are usually very likeable.

[RacingManiac]

An entry level mainstream car which can do 0-60 in 6"5 seconds? God, European cars are slow...

I think its that the new cars are too unnecessarily fast....I mean a V6 Camry/Accord/Altma are all pushing 300bhp(FWD!), and they are mid-5 0-60 car. They are faster than most hot hatches in a straightline....Who needs that in a bread and butter car? soccer mom won't need it....

[roosterjuicer]

It's a bit like the CR-Z. There are many cars better than it, but it is the future.

If the CR-Z is the future, shoot me now please. I would happily pay double for a FR-S than a CR-Z. Its horrible.

I think the FR-S/BRZ is a great car. Think about it from a 16 year old's perspective. Its cheap, good on gas, good looking. Its not fast, but its got enough power to move around and have fun with. Its a perfect first car, not fast enough to kill you but fast enough to have fun.

[roosterjuicer]

They are faster than most hot hatches in a straightline....

I've been saying it for years. Most (not all) "hot hatches" are actually not hot at all.

[RacingManiac]

I still won't drive a Camry to autoX though...lol

And really, they are still faster than most cars in the bread and butter segment in EU market. US market is very skewed...

[Ferrer]

Well the thing is, hot hatches are an entirely European thing and as such has to be taken in its own context. Many of them aren't very fast in straight line, but then again Europe has fewb starights and expensive petrol.

On the other hand show a good one, like a Twingo RS or a Swift Sport, a proper mountain road and a Mustang GT or a Camaro SS will fail to keep up with them.

If the CR-Z is the future, shoot me now please. I would happily pay double for a FR-S than a CR-Z. Its horrible.

The good thing about the CR-Z is that it is the first affordable green-eco car to be designed towards driving fun. That's the breakthrough of it. It may be a little bit too slow and a little bit too fat, but it is a landmark car. It shows that green can be fun and it will probably be the template for future fun cars. I think it is a much underrated and misunderstood car.

I've also read it's quite good in the corners.

[jcp123]

I have read the opposite...that the CR-Z pretty roundly disappoints in terms of driving fun. I'd rather have the first-gen Insight.

[RacingManiac]

I have read the opposite...that the CR-Z pretty roundly disappoints in terms of driving fun. I'd rather have the first-gen Insight.

This....I've heard this as well....

[roosterjuicer]

On the other hand show a good one, like a Twingo RS or a Swift Sport, a proper mountain road and a Mustang GT or a Camaro SS will fail to keep up with them.

That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.

[RacingManiac]

That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.

Why is that crazy?

[jcp123]

That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.

I agree. They don't handle half-bad these days. Still wouldn't buy a car for the handling anyway, though. Not my thing. And don't have any roads to enjoy it on around here even if that were my thing.

[Ferrer]

That's the craziest thing I've heard all week.

It is not only outright performance/speed/grip which would make the hot hatches faster but also, since they are designed to be driven on these sort of roads, the confidence they give you when you have to drive in attack mode there.

They change direction more easily, are easier to place on the road, fit better on narrow country lanes, it's not the same stopping several times 1800kg than topping 900kg and they usually are fitted with high performance summer tyres (which for us here in the south are "all-year" tyres).

Of course, if you show them a quarter mile it's a lost battle (heck, if we take into account the times dicussed here, an entry level Camry would get to 60 about two and half seconds faster than the Tiwngo RS) but as long as there are corners hot hatches will reign supreme.

It is not a bad thing. Regional performance cars are developped with regional constraints in mind. We have expensive petrol and lots of corners, so right from the beggining there was no point in developping big powerful engines, which is why most hot hatchbacks have buzzy little four cylinder engines. We instead spent the money on suspension and brakes.

It is the opposite in the US where there aren't many corners and petrol is cheap and plentiful. So there was little point in developping suspension and brakes. Instead US car manufacturers concentrated on developping powerful great big V8s with amazing soundtracks.

There is no better way, just different approaches to do a high performance vehicle. Hot hatches and muscle cars are actually the two sides of the same high performance coin.

I agree. They don't handle half-bad these days. Still wouldn't buy a car for the handling anyway, though. Not my thing. And don't have any roads to enjoy it on around here even if that were my thing.

For me it's pretty much number one.