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Thread: Are we just a bunch of idiots?

  1. #16
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    If you listen to the mindless masses and the authorities yes, we are a bunch of idiots. Dangerous ones.

    The mass market does not care about handling nor even the feel of a car. Most of them can’t drive well enough to ever experience much less appreciate these things. Only by pushing a car to its limits are these attributes ever explored. And doing that is going to be mostly illegal. Even worse, in this backward shit hole anyway, people who even try to explore their cars handling are labeled hoons and can have their cars impounded. A “hoon” can be anything form a person who momentarily chirps his wheels with a spirited take off to a pair of idiots involved in a 200+ kmh street race. But to the authorities and their mindless drones these are exactly the same thing.

    Roads that were once 60kmh in an era before every car had ABS, air bags, poorer brakes and buckled like tuna cans in an impact are now 50kmh. Obviously the revenue collection possibilities of this measure play a huge part in its implementation but it still seems hard to justify. Or does it?

    The mindless masses for whom cars are now designed don’t think so. The “if you don’t want to get fined don’t speed” morons who have never experienced anything in a car other than getting to their destination are the Epsilon Morons the authorities thrive on. These people ask the question “why do we need V8s or high performance cars?” These people believe that 5ks over the speed limit is truly as dangerous as the authorities want us to believe.These are the people for whom the manufacturers are having to lure buyers with such fruit as Sat Nav, IPod connectivity and Siri as opposed to sports suspension and extra horsepower. These are the people for whom manufacturers are even building cars that park themselves because the owners have long lost that ability. These people will condemn exceeding speed limits or driving spiritedly yet seem to have no problem with cars that are now designed to compromise their already nonexistent concentration or awareness. Pissing around with “entertainment systems” and scrolling through endless menus of on board distractions doesn’t faze them. Nor the authorities for some reason. But “creep” 5 ks over a prescribed speed limit…….

    We have two manufacturers in this little back water who still build large rear wheel drive cars. We are unique in that these are the “basic” family cars not exotic or prestige over priced snob-mobiles. But their days are numbered. I am probably a little different to some of you guys who desire the smaller go cart type sports cars but we are still mostly on the same page. I don’t care if my big arsed V8 rwd lump won’t go around a corner like it’s on rails. I actually like to have a struggle and know that if my right foot is not under control it could turn to shit. And I like it when I can occasionally put the boot in I get thrown back in my seat. Nevertheless we all enjoy something from motoring that the regular road users don’t. Unfortunately the options available for us to pursue in our endeavors to satisfy our thrills are becoming fewer and fewer.
    Last edited by crisis; 04-24-2013 at 07:45 PM.
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  2. #17
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    You copied and pasted this from the "current state of the car" thread.

    Can't say I disagree though.
    An it harm none, do as ye will

    Approximately 79% of statistics are made up.

  3. #18
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    I don't believe what Crisis says is what Ferrer is referring to, and if anything, it actually does not hold true. For that to be true manufacturers have to hold no relevance to handling at all and all cars does not actually "handle". Cars now, even if the regulations have become stricter, are faster and more capable than they ever was at any point, and if anything, they are easier to drive even if the people are not likely to probe their limit ever in their lifetime. Ferrer's gripes, as he has quite regularly expressed, has more to do with the emphasis now put of measurable quantitative object handling. Which may have dulled or diminished the importance of subjective handling.
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    The A2 came on the market a time when the Audi madness/snobbery was far less wide spread compared to now.
    Do you think that if Audi released the A2 now it would sell?

    I remember that even back in the day car journalists mocked the A2 for being an expensive toy car.

    I always thought it was a misunderstood car.
    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    Very hard to relate to those since we don't get any of those cars except iQ, and I kinda like iQ. Its a better made Smart, and does the City car thing smarter...
    I like the iQ, a lot.

    But it is expensive. It costs as much as cars from the segment above. And to make it probably costs as much as cars from a couple of segments above.

    Is that justified from a business point of view? I think probably not, and yet manufacturers still insist in those kind of cars (from time to time, that is).
    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    I don't believe what Crisis says is what Ferrer is referring to, and if anything, it actually does not hold true. For that to be true manufacturers have to hold no relevance to handling at all and all cars does not actually "handle". Cars now, even if the regulations have become stricter, are faster and more capable than they ever was at any point, and if anything, they are easier to drive even if the people are not likely to probe their limit ever in their lifetime. Ferrer's gripes, as he has quite regularly expressed, has more to do with the emphasis now put of measurable quantitative object handling. Which may have dulled or diminished the importance of subjective handling.
    Indeed.

    But it's more than that.

    Why did Daimler bottle out with the new A-Class? I'm sure they made a lot of very expensive studies and came to the conclusion that what people actually want is a Golf with a posh badge and a massive price tag, not an odd-looking, but clever, spacious and practical mini MPV. Also, sportiness for some reason sells.

    So it seems that the general public is not interested in interesting (pardon the redundancy) solutions and thinking outside the box any more.

    I have friend who's an engineer himself and quite likes cars. When I tell him that I like the Toyota iQ I just get laughed at. And he is an engineer, not a stock broker who drinks champagne because it's the cool thing to do.

    On that basis being clever and innovative makes no sense at all in terms of business, costs, revenues and profits.

    Then why do manufacturers still insist in those type of cars?
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  5. #20
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    Friends latest new car jstu summed up the "general view" on cars.
    It came with automatic parallel parking and hill start assis !!
    This is NOT a luxury model, but this is included.
    I concur, it's not handling that makes the difference in the mass market, it's making it easy for the driver to be less skilful --- which means "enough good handling" is all that matters, not "better"
    I part of me cried when he showed me it parking the car
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
    Do you think that if Audi released the A2 now it would sell?

    I remember that even back in the day car journalists mocked the A2 for being an expensive toy car.
    Today journos would not dare to criticize any Audi product, fearing that they will not be invited to drive the all conquering RS models any more.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Friends latest new car jstu summed up the "general view" on cars.
    It came with automatic parallel parking and hill start assis !!
    This is NOT a luxury model, but this is included.
    I concur, it's not handling that makes the difference in the mass market, it's making it easy for the driver to be less skilful --- which means "enough good handling" is all that matters, not "better"
    I part of me cried when he showed me it parking the car
    parallel parking used to be one of our five specific activities that you had to master before you got you license. Women always had big problems with that. Making a U-turn of the road (in two or three stages) was also one of these specialties, when I did that once in Canada I got reprimanded by a police officer that such an action was gross misconduct.....

    Driving today is a tool to get somewhere carrying an x amount of people and and y amount of luggage, with the least amount of possible problems. Our friend the elk solved lots of these potential problems already for us.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  8. #23
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    We still need to test for 3 point turn and parallel parking in the licensing process....at least when I got my license 13-14 years ago(damn is it really that long?)
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  9. #24
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    Yeah, we did too. Never got word on its legal status here though.
    An it harm none, do as ye will

    Approximately 79% of statistics are made up.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcp123 View Post
    You copied and pasted this from the "current state of the car" thread.

    Can't say I disagree though.
    Probably looks that way but no.
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    Friends latest new car jstu summed up the "general view" on cars.
    It came with automatic parallel parking and hill start assis !!
    This is NOT a luxury model, but this is included.
    I concur, it's not handling that makes the difference in the mass market, it's making it easy for the driver to be less skilful --- which means "enough good handling" is all that matters, not "better"
    I part of me cried when he showed me it parking the car
    The next and last Commodore base model will have this too. I already see some irony that this feature will become increasingly common at the same time many governments and councils are forcing cars out of the city centre by reducing on street parking.
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Today journos would not dare to criticize any Audi product, fearing that they will not be invited to drive the all conquering RS models any more.
    So back when they had something interesting they were criticised.

    Now that they don't they aren't.

    I'm having a hard time understanding the motoring press...
    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    parallel parking used to be one of our five specific activities that you had to master before you got you license. Women always had big problems with that. Making a U-turn of the road (in two or three stages) was also one of these specialties, when I did that once in Canada I got reprimanded by a police officer that such an action was gross misconduct.....

    Driving today is a tool to get somewhere carrying an x amount of people and and y amount of luggage, with the least amount of possible problems. Our friend the elk solved lots of these potential problems already for us.
    Quote Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
    We still need to test for 3 point turn and parallel parking in the licensing process....at least when I got my license 13-14 years ago(damn is it really that long?)
    7 or 8 years ago, we did have to learn parallel parking as well (which incidentally I've never been good at) but no three point turn that I can remember. We did have to learn to start the car on a hill though, which made some interesting faces from people trying it...

    By the way, those park-o-matic systems, we have it in the Mercedes and while it works moderately well and I don't think that in normal congested city driving they are that practical. You've got to be pretty much crawling, indicating, wait for the car to sense a free space, put reverse, touch some buttons and go. I believe that by step two or three fellow drivers would already be firing the horn at you...
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Driving today is a tool to get somewhere carrying an x amount of people and and y amount of luggage, with the least amount of possible problems. Our friend the elk solved lots of these potential problems already for us.
    I think this is a general tendency in pretty much everything these days. Things become much more complex in the way they work inside and much easier to use in many cases so they substitute some parts of human behaviour. For instance, since the time I got my first cell phone I noticed that I don't remember more than 5-6 phone numbers actually, because to call somebody you just need to dial the number once in your life - when you are putting it into the phone book in your device. With that I noticed that my memory got a bit worse (and I'm 24...).

    That and also the tendency of more loyalty, more safety, more correctedness among the people coming from the authorities rather than society. I'm not putting to doubt that these things are important and necessary, but sometimes they are a bit over the top and don't quite work providing troubles instead. To ban alcohol sales after 10pm for people to drink less was stupid, as everybody started to buy more before the X-hour. To raise prices on alcohol was stupid, as many people continued to spend the same amount of money, just for the products of a worse quality.

    I think the point that people just don't care about car's personality stands along with these - you are told you should drive responsibly, but that means 'drive slowly' for many. Things like parking assist are marketed as safety devices, and people believe they are really more safe in the car that can park on its own (and that car can save some nerve by not hitting somebody else's car, to be said). Also, for most people car is a status. If Dacia would have made a really great executive car somehow, I doubt they would sell more than Romanian government would request, if they would at all. If exactly the same car would be sold with Renault badge, people would 'know' that it is better, safer and more reliable. If you would sell it as Infiniti, there might be queues to get one. That's a simple case of a label, the world is driven by PR and nothing can beat marketing tricks. If they say Lexus IS is the most fun car to drive in its class, then they know what they're saying, as they have 'calculated' that. Yeah, you can calculate everything now, don't you people know? /sarcasm, just in case/

    All in all, if somebody wants to drive an electric car at 30 kph every day, gosh, just go and do it, but don't make me do the same, as I don't want to! We're becoming more and more lazy and refined, aren't we?

  14. #29
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    Judging by the amound of Toyobarus I see about, the market for small cheap fun is pretty healthy. The sky's not really falling, it's just re-arranging itself.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimento View Post
    Judging by the amound of Toyobarus I see about, the market for small cheap fun is pretty healthy. The sky's not really falling, it's just re-arranging itself.
    They are so amazingly cheap. I think that helped. If I didn't need 8 cylinders in my life I would be gunning straight for one of those when the time was right.
    "A string is approximately nine long."
    Egg Nogg 02-04-2005, 05:07 AM

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