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Thread: Which car do you HATE most?

  1. #856
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    Everything ever made by Asia!

  2. #857
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    Who is Asia?
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    Who is Asia?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Motors

    The only model I can recall without reading any text is the Rocsta.

    https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/foru...csta-1990-1997
    Last edited by Man of Steel; 10-09-2021 at 04:04 AM.

  4. #859
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    Ok! I guess I should not be surprised by that question! Asia is a continent East of you! You know China, India, Japan, most of Russia! Or more specifically Honda, Toyota, Hino, Hundia, Kia, TATA, etc. and the list goes on and on!

  5. #860
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    If that is your meaning of the word Asia, I can only consider this comment racist, and I would advise you to delete it. Comments like : "All American cars are sh.t" without any further elaboration are below the standards we require from our members.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  6. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    If that is your meaning of the word Asia, I can only consider this comment racist, and I would advise you to delete it. Comments like : "All American cars are sh.t" without any further elaboration are below the standards we require from our members.
    There is nothing racist about the comment! I did not say anything about the people! I worked with a great number of these people and they were all more than competent and amiable! If that is your perception than maybe you are the racist!
    How many different bands of automobiles have you driven? How many brands of automobiles have you torn apart, inspected and made designs for? Let me guess, none!
    That’s what I did for 40 years! Designed and developed for a world leading additive company that solved deficiencies in all types and kinds of propulsion vehicles! Gas, diesel, diesel electric, as well as wind energy! In every brand in every country on every continent! GM, Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Volkswagen, Saab, Volvo, Scania, EFFA, Hino, TATA, Honda, Toyota, Kia & Holden just to name some!
    Those designs effected nearly every aspect of the vehicle. Engine, transmission, drive axle, suspension, gear box, etc.
    I’ve been in the North Sea on Wind turbines. I’ve been on top of one of the highest point in South America, Chuquicamata. At the Chuqui mine, to work on issues for the diesel electric mine haulers as well as the Powder River basin in Montana. I’ve been all over the US for designs on locomotives as well as Australia!
    For myself; I have built race cars for quarter mile racing, for road course racing & for autocross racing! I’ve built street cars, muscle cars & custom cars!
    So when I say all Asian cars there’s a good reason from a vast amount of experience! None of which has to do with ethnicity, but everything to do with overall design!

  7. #862
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    At least I triggered you to make a more comprehensive comment than your first one in this thread, and yet you have not been able to make it clear what it is about Asian cars that makes you hate them the most (as per title of this thread). What do you find wrong with their design? Not exiting enough? Prone to mechanical failures? You seem to have enough experience in this field (and, yes, more than mine) to elaborate a bit more on aspects that, according to you, make all these cars hate worthy.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  8. #863
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    At least I triggered you to make a more comprehensive comment than your first one in this thread, and yet you have not been able to make it clear what it is about Asian cars that makes you hate them the most (as per title of this thread). What do you find wrong with their design? Not exiting enough? Prone to mechanical failures? You seem to have enough experience in this field (and, yes, more than mine) to elaborate a bit more on aspects that, according to you, make all these cars hate worthy.
    Well, first of all I did not pick the title “hate”! So I personally would not say I hate everything made in Asia! To be clear, what the mainstream buying public would and do purchase in cars, what they cost, how easily they can be converted to a overall decent performing car, I.E. power, ride, handling, comfort, noise, etc; Asian cars are at the very distant bottom of my list!

    As I do not live in Europe I can’t speak to what it is like there, but in the states Asian cars sell well for several reasons! #1 reason, Cheap! #2, most of the service is part of the warranty! So that usually covers the entire time frame the first owner has the car! And here in the states most folks don’t know how to change their socks let alone do maintenance on a car! #3, Again I don’t know about Europe, but Americans are gullible fools when it comes to advertising! You could sell them a turd on wheels if it had enough bells and whistles and a blabber mouth tell you how great it was!

    Here are some facts you can check out! I presume you know of NASCAR? While these are not normal cars in such that any of us could buy, yet there is some relevance. When Toyota came into NASCAR there was a lot of push back from the fans! First of all they were using a Chevy V8 engine, as Toyota had no V8, which at the time the rules clearly stated the manufacturer had to be using a V8 in a passenger car to compete! Then for about the first three or four season Toyota could not come close to even the last US car maker (Dodge) at the time in NASCAR! So each year the governing body of NASCAR kept changing the car requirements until finally Toyota could win! So you see as in the real world of every day cars the same has happened. It is perception of excellence that has most folks fooled into the illusion of quality, that really doesn’t exist!

    More proof! They use cheaper steal! They use inferior rubber throughout the car! The structural integrity of the cars are subpar! They are also the nosiest things I’ve ever heard when your in the car!
    The geometry of their suspension is an abomination and the ability to alter the CG or RC is very difficult! The only reason they handle at all is because they are lower to the ground proportionally for their size than nearly any other car of any manufacturer!

    More proof In the states at least! I have posed this question to many advocates of those cars! If they are so great! So reliable! Then where are the 15 year old ones? They are not on the roads! They’re not at the car shows! They’re not in the junk yards! Where are they? Crushed! That’s where they are because when they are done they’re done! You can’t rebuild them, you can’t salvage them! Yes once in a blue moon you’ll find one, but by comparison of US cars or European cars here in the states; it’s very disproportional!
    Last edited by Last Indian; 10-12-2021 at 04:53 PM.

  9. #864
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    To reply to your last question I refer to Europe. Since the Toyota's were sold in great numbers, dealers became active in selling the older ones to African countries. Not because they were rubbish or because their structural integrity was subpar, but because they could be driven there without too much to worry about. Owners of Toyota cars in Holland often found a little note under their wipers to contact the dealers, because they wanted to buy the car for export. Hence you will not find many any more. Are you aware if such practices occurred in the US too?

    As per your remark of Toyota having no V8 for NASCAR, the real answer is that Toyota had no pushrod V8, because they had long realised that such engines were not the latest state of the art. In the late sixties Toyota already used a 3-litre V8 quad cam in the Toyota 7, and while that admittedly was not the most successful car they ever produced, the use of V8's in their passenger cars started in 1991 with the induction of the Celsior. (Sold abroad as the Lexus) and it was also widely used in the Landcruiser and Tundra models. The Landcruiser has proven to be one one the best 4x4 ever developed, while Toyota also made several cars that won the world Rallye Championships. Obviously they could be turned into something winning.

    You put your focus on Toyota but also Nissan had their quad cam V8's for use in protoypes. Datsun/Nissan's 240Z's in period had a great reputation as rally and race cars, so the geometry of their suspension must have been not so bad as you are trying to make us belief. And then there was the Skyline range, which has became a very sought after racing car. Did you ever dealt with such as car? In short, generalisation is not the way to start a debate.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  10. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    To reply to your last question I refer to Europe. Since the Toyota's were sold in great numbers, dealers became active in selling the older ones to African countries. Not because they were rubbish or because their structural integrity was subpar, but because they could be driven there without too much to worry about. Owners of Toyota cars in Holland often found a little note under their wipers to contact the dealers, because they wanted to buy the car for export. Hence you will not find many any more. Are you aware if such practices occurred in the US too?

    As per your remark of Toyota having no V8 for NASCAR, the real answer is that Toyota had no pushrod V8, because they had long realised that such engines were not the latest state of the art. In the late sixties Toyota already used a 3-litre V8 quad cam in the Toyota 7, and while that admittedly was not the most successful car they ever produced, the use of V8's in their passenger cars started in 1991 with the induction of the Celsior. (Sold abroad as the Lexus) and it was also widely used in the Landcruiser and Tundra models. The Landcruiser has proven to be one one the best 4x4 ever developed, while Toyota also made several cars that won the world Rallye Championships. Obviously they could be turned into something winning.

    You put your focus on Toyota but also Nissan had their quad cam V8's for use in protoypes. Datsun/Nissan's 240Z's in period had a great reputation as rally and race cars, so the geometry of their suspension must have been not so bad as you are trying to make us belief. And then there was the Skyline range, which has became a very sought after racing car. Did you ever dealt with such as car? In short, generalisation is not the way to start a debate.
    Henk4, these are not generalizations, these are facts! Neither were the previous statements, but I will give more detail here.
    Ok! Let’s debate! I like a good debate and a sharing of ideas & facts! So to your first paragraph! No this does not occur in the US, with respect the buying of any Asian car, be they Honda, Kia, Toyota, Hyundai or whatever brand to export! What they do try to buy and export is Older American cars!

    As far as the structure being subpar statement; whether or not you are aware of it or not, that statement is a fact and provable! If you do not understand how steel is made, or the issues with Chinese steel I.E. additives that are added to increase the strength of the steel, the pickling process, the annealing process and the proper portions of additives and materials that are used, than again I understand your doubts, but these and their proportions are absolutely critical to steel! If you still have doubts, do an internet search of British or European articles they will say exactly what I’m telling you! And Europe & Britain compared to the US has suffered the most! So with that said I understand your lack of knowledge with failure of these cars.
    All of the Asian cars use Chinese steel, which is the poorest steel on the market! America car manufacturers of all kinds will not use Chinese steel, but that is getting harder and harder to do because the Chinese are flooding the world market with their steel, currently about 49% of all steel on the world market! This to a small degree is why they can sell a car cheaper than the US! There is a lot of steel in a car! Some European companies like VW do use Chinese steel! You can research this to prove it to yourself! But here in the states 100s of thousand of cars these manufacturer’s built, like VW, Honda, Kia, Nissan,Hyundai & yes Toyota have face recalls since the early 2000s due to failed structural components including frames! In the late 1960s, early 1970s American car manufacturers used Chinese steel for body panels and their recalls were through the roof, so they cease that practice. In 2013 the Oakland Bay bridge, which had used some Chinese steel was found to be in structural peril unless 32 rods were replaced! These are the long rods that run from the huge support cable to the roadway! This was all after the original reconstruction project that required 750 panels to be removed and replaced due to cracking, these are the panels that support the pavement! Between 2011 & 2012 eight bridges in China collapsed completely because of their steel! Also in 2008 in China’s Sichung province a metal school building collapsed crushing 700 school children to death! So! Still want to by and drive one of those cars?

    Now Toyota & NASCAR! First off the Toyota 7 was a race car not a production car! I.E. you could not buy the car! NASCAR required that the manufacturer have a V8 in a production car in the US! They did not! Even the Celsior, which in the US was called the LS, was not sold in a V8 version here, only a V6! Furthermore NASCAR engines are not push rod type valve train, there are DOHC! So that was not relevant as you infer! So to my point, NASCAR hierarchy bent and manipulate the rules to allow a manufacturer in that did not meet the requirements! And all NASCAR has done now is turn themselves into IROC! It truly is no longer NASCAR!
    The Landcruiser is a great 4x4 & Toyota has without a doubt many others, but hands down Jeep still to this days holds that coveted top position! And at least here in the US, that scene of off in the wilderness sitting on a mountain side might sell from an appeal standpoint, with the road system in the US it’s actually a waste of money for most folks as they would be lucky to do that once in the whole time they owned the vehicle! So really that’s the last thing, at least to me, that I base quality on!
    Cheers!
    Last edited by Last Indian; 10-16-2021 at 12:26 PM.

  11. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Indian View Post
    Henk4, these are not generalizations, these are facts! Neither were the previous statements, but I will give more detail here.
    Ok! Let’s debate! I like a good debate and a sharing of ideas & facts! So to your first paragraph! No this does not occur in the US, with respect the buying of any Asian car, be they Honda, Kia, Toyota, Hyundai or whatever brand to export! What they do try to buy and export is Older American cars!

    As far as the structure being subpar statement; whether or not you are aware of it or not, that statement is a fact and provable! If you do not understand how steel is made, or the issues with Chinese steel I.E. additives that are added to increase the strength of the steel, the pickling process, the annealing process and the proper portions of additives and materials that are used, than again I understand your doubts, but these and their proportions are absolutely critical to steel! If you still have doubts, do an internet search of British or European articles they will say exactly what I’m telling you! And Europe & Britain compared to the US has suffered the most! So with that said I understand your lack of knowledge with failure of these cars.
    All of the Asian cars use Chinese steel, which is the poorest steel on the market! America car manufacturers of all kinds will not use Chinese steel, but that is getting harder and harder to do because the Chinese are flooding the world market with their steel, currently about 49% of all steel on the world market! This to a small degree is why they can sell a car cheaper than the US! There is a lot of steel in a car! Some European companies like VW do use Chinese steel! You can research this to prove it to yourself! But here in the states 100s of thousand of cars these manufacturer’s built, like VW, Honda, Kia, Nissan,Hyundai & yes Toyota have face recalls since the early 2000s due to failed structural components including frames! In the late 1960s, early 1970s American car manufacturers used Chinese steel for body panels and their recalls were through the roof, so they cease that practice. In 2013 the Oakland Bay bridge, which had used some Chinese steel was found to be in structural peril unless 32 rods were replaced! These are the long rods that run from the huge support cable to the roadway! This was all after the original reconstruction project that required 750 panels to be removed and replaced due to cracking, these are the panels that support the pavement! Between 2011 & 2012 eight bridges in China collapsed completely because of their steel! Also in 2008 in China’s Sichung province a metal school building collapsed crushing 700 school children to death! So! Still want to by and drive one of those cars?

    Now Toyota & NASCAR! First off the Toyota 7 was a race car not a production car! I.E. you could not buy the car! NASCAR required that the manufacturer have a V8 in a production car in the US! They did not! Even the Celsior, which in the US was called the LS, was not sold in a V8 version here, only a V6! Furthermore NASCAR engines are not push rod type valve train, there are DOHC! So that was not relevant as you infer! So to my point, NASCAR hierarchy bent and manipulate the rules to allow a manufacturer in that did not meet the requirements! And all NASCAR has done now is turn themselves into IROC! It truly is no longer NASCAR!
    The Landcruiser is a great 4x4 & Toyota has without a doubt many others, but hands down Jeep still to this days holds that coveted top position! And at least here in the US, that scene of off in the wilderness sitting on a mountain side might sell from an appeal standpoint, with the road system in the US it’s actually a waste of money for most folks as they would be lucky to do that once in the whole time they owned the vehicle! So really that’s the last thing, at least to me, that a base quality on!
    Now here is a subject we can debate! Overhead cam or push rod?! Now you speak of the quad cam engine of the Toyota 7. You implied that Toyota was a head of the game by using a quad cam, DOHC, valve train! But the fact is that in 1903 Buick patented the SOHC & the DOHC long before Toyota existed! One of the main reason US manufacturers did not incorporate non push rod valve trains in their cars sooner, was cost Vs performance Vs reliability! It cost more than double the expense of a standard push rod engine for DOHC with no real benefit for a typical run of the mill car!
    Have you ever built or tore down a DOHC? Have you ever built or tore down a push rod engine? If so than you know that you must tear down the entire engine to the short block for DOHC, but a push rod engine requires intake & valve cover removal only, unless you are replacing the cam, in which case you must remove the water pump & timing chain cover! If you’re doing valve work then you need to remove the intake & cylinder heads, but again if it’s DOHC you must tear it down to the short block!
    Horsepower really not an issue 600 to 700 hp on a push rod engine is no problem! 10,000 rpm is achievable! Gas mileage doesn’t improve! So in general where is the advantage for a standard every day car? The single biggest advantage to DOHC is variable valve timing when it relates to big horsepower and fuel economy!

    In 1969 I bought a 1969 Z/28 Camaro. I owned it for 35 years it was featured in different car magazines, but the point is it was a monster! Chevy rated the car at 290 hp, that was a lie and everyone knew it! That figure was all wrapped around car insurance! The “69” Z/28 302 produced 600 hp! Many aftermarket test were performed by famous & reputable people that proved this include GM who also elsewhere had documentation that the 302 produced no less than 2 horsepower per cubic inch! You do the math! Nothing that I’ve ever driven before or since was comparable! The power was incredible, but the gas mileage was even more incredible! It was only 6 mpg! It didn’t matter what you were doing idling, cruzin or racing! 6mpg!
    My point is that now by comparison I have a much bigger, heavier car with V6 312 hp with DOHC and variable valve timing and while it pales by comparison, it’s pretty quick, will cruz at 90 mph or around town and still get 18 mpg, my foot hasn’t gotten any lighter! This is indeed to a great part is because of DOHC and VVT!
    Cheers!
    Last edited by Last Indian; 10-16-2021 at 01:24 PM.

  12. #867
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    Last Indian, the trouble with the steel in Japanese cars is not caused by the use of Chinese steel, but by the Kobe Steel Company, based in Japan, so no need to blame the Chinese and coming up with all this anti Chinese rhetoric. It is simply not relevant here.

    NASCAR engines are 90 degree push rod V8's up to this day. If you know of other engines, show me a picture please.

    I never claimed that Toyota had the first DOHC V8, but your point was that Toyota had no engine. And indeed, they did not have one, constructed according to the rules applicable to the NASCAR Cup cars, but they had V8s long before they approached NASCAR to enter the CUP series.

    https://www.espn.com/racing/news/sto...s=2&id=2648503

    This is a link to an article that describes the background of why many people did not want Toyota to come in, at a time when their V8's were well spread all over the world. It reminds me of the refusal in the Sixties by Bill France to allow Ford to use the Cammer engine, it was considered European extravaganza.

    The car you may be driving now is not only heavier because of the engine, but mainly of the improved safety structure in the car, and all the comfort items that seem to be necessary these days.
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  13. #868
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    Man, he sure does like exclamation points. Kinda fun to watch you feed the troll, Henk.
    Never own more cars than you can keep charged batteries in...

  14. #869
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    CSL177: I have been the victim of a conversion to America First...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  15. #870
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    I feel your pain. Conversion therapy is always dodgy... BTW, since I sold the CSL should I change my handle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Indian View Post
    Now here is a subject we can debate! But the fact is that in 1903 Buick patented the SOHC & the DOHC long before Toyota existed!
    This is false. Buick did build the first mass-produced OHV engines, but never OHC and certainly didn't hold a patent on it. Marr Autocar was first to offer an OHC engine in 1903. Look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Indian View Post
    In 1969 I bought a 1969 Z/28 Camaro. Chevy rated the car at 290 hp, that was a lie and everyone knew it! That figure was all wrapped around car insurance! The “69” Z/28 302 produced 600 hp! Many aftermarket test were performed by famous & reputable people that proved this include GM who also elsewhere had documentation that the 302 produced no less than 2 horsepower per cubic inch!
    Horseshit. Please post your sources and documentation. GM fudged on HP a bit just as every other make did in that period for insurance reasons, yes... but your claim of 2HP per CI in any naturally aspirated pushrod engine is fantasy.

    A shame Matra isn't around for this. It could be genuinely entertaining.
    Never own more cars than you can keep charged batteries in...

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