Pro-Gun Laws Lobbyists...

[my porsche]

texas has the death penalty and WE USE IT! for that reason, its so sad to see the devestation caused by some nutjob goijng on a killing spree

[Luciferous]

Look alright, you're saying its OK for people to own guns. For fun. For recreation. For some other stupid excuse. I've known people and been in situations where I'm glad guns aren't as easy to get a hold of in Australia. You can't assume that everyone can keep a level head because they can't. And if they get in the wrong frame of mind and know where its easy to get a gun they'd probably go get one. It doesn't happen often but all it needs is one example to prove how dangerous they are.

People can say guns don't kill people people kill people. But the point is that guns kill. Someone can go nuts with a sword or a knife and be restrained or handled quickly and (relatively) safely. If they go nuts with a gun then they can't.

Most gun related murders in Australia are usually to do with the Underworld thinning each other out, and we don't have many other murders directly involving 'innocent' victims and guns.

The fact that people try and defend guns is a joke. They do play a part in society but its a very small part, nowhere near as big as some people make it.

[cls12vg30]

He raised the spirts of some victims of the Columbine shotting by having the 9mm bullets removed from k-mart, When i seen they sold bullets in there and some other weapons i went I know of no k-mart here that sells bullets.
About 7-8 years ago we destroyed many firearms.

Where did you hear that? Did Michael Moore tell you?
Funny, I walked into Wal-Mart yesterday and they had a decent selection of 9mm Luger (9x19mm, not to be confused with 9x18mm Makarov or 9x17, also known as 9mm short or .380 ACP.) Not to mention several other major pistol calibers such as .40 S&W and .45 ACP, and a nice variety of rifle and shotgun calibers.

I notice a lot of Aussies are chiming in here. Well, you've already let your government disarm you, so you guys have got what you want. I just hope you REALLY trust that government. It's none of your business how easy it is to get guns in the U.S. None of our guns can shoot across the Pacific, so don't worry about it. My votes and my political activist activities will go to preserve the right to keep and bear arms until the last breath leaves my body. It is that right that guarantees the right to free speech, free press, and all the other rights we hold so dear.

As for kids being shot, last year more kids died playing football that were accidentally shot, I suppose we ought to outlaw football.

Your faith in your fellow man is also strange. Do you read or watch the news?
There will be stories of nuts every bulletin.

Of course, the purpose of news is ratings. Of course they don't report all the times when the presence of a firearm in the hands of an intended victim prevents a crime. It would be best not to take as gospel everything the news tells you, or rather, you should consider all the things they don't tell you.

You either have an extremely heightened sense of perception or can see things a lot of the rest of us cant. Not all nut jobs run around with a danger sign on their head.

I wouldn't call it extremely heightened, just the product of 27 tumultous years of life experience, and instinct. Anyone who uses drugs is automatically off my list of people to associate with, as is anyone who mixes firearms and alcohol. A bit of common sense goes a long way.

[Luciferous]

Maybe you should have checked K-mart for bullets.

And maybe if more people die from playing football than guns maybe it just says something about the people playing the game. Obviously you guys don't wear enough pads as it is.

QUOTE: I notice a lot of Aussies are chiming in here. Well, you've already let your government disarm you, so you guys have got what you want. I just hope you REALLY trust that government. It's none of your business how easy it is to get guns in the U.S. None of our guns can shoot across the Pacific, so don't worry about it. My votes and my political activist activities will go to preserve the right to keep and bear arms until the last breath leaves my body. It is that right that guarantees the right to free speech, free press, and all the other rights we hold so dear.

Youre right if our government ever comes out and sticks us in concentration camps won't we have egg on our face for giving up our guns! If you reckon we Aussies should mind our own business start a new thread.

Other rights you hold so dear? Because they really got America high on the list of most livable countries in the world didn't it? The list where Australia came 3rd and America came 8th. So how can a country on the other side of the world to all the other Western countries with a paltry 19 million people be better to live in than America? I wonder....

[cls12vg30]

Hehe...I'm not sure what list you're referring to, but I have to say whatever list that is it doesn't mean a lot to me. People are individuals. Every one is different, which is why socialism doesn't work, it assumes group-think and tries to destroy individual ambition and responsibility. And there is no list that could convince me that Australia would be a better place for me to live. It may be great for you, and that's fine. Enjoy it.

Getting back to guns, I keep hearing the same old line, "Guns kill, that's all they're designed to do." Which is of course only partially true, as your typical defensive handgun is actually quite an ineffective killing tool, compared to rifles and shotguns. Handgun rounds are quite weak. Most knowledgeable people in the U.S. consider a 9mm just barely adequate for self-defense, and many would never trust such a weak round, despite all that the movies have told you all.

But, handguns are designed to wound and kill human beings, this is true. What I can't grasp is that so many people fail to make the distinction between an innocent human being and one who has made the conscious decision to become a criminal predator. Such a person has accepted the risks that come along with purposely victimizing thier fellow human beings. One of those risks, (at least in my country) is being shot and maybe killed by their intended victim. I do not consider such an occurrence a tragedy. I simply do not consider a criminal lying dead in the street to be a tragedy on the same level as an innocent person lying dead in the street. And I'm comfortable being an armed law-abiding citizen who may one day have to take the life of such a criminal to protect the life of myself or another citizen. The odds are against such an occasion ever happening, despite what your media may have told you. But at least I will never find myself in the horrible position of witnessing a predatory criminal attacking an innocent person, and being powerless to do anything about it.

[Luciferous]

Now if that isn't a paranoid sentiment I don't know what is. It's all based around a 'what if' ideal. What if a criminal walked in with a knife? What if a criminal walked in with a pistol? What if a criminal walked in with a rifle? What if a criminal walked in with a Bazooka? What if a criminal walked in with a Laser gun? Where does it end? It doesn't end.

But I see it's a good thing that you can always take the law into your own hands when the fancy takes you. I wish I could do that. All I need is a trenchcoat and getup like in the Matrix, maybe with a Punisher t-shirt, so I can 'take out the trash' when I thought the situation demanded it. It would really make me feel like a man. Does it make you feel like a man cls12vg30?

[cls12vg30]

No, it makes me feel like a responsible citizen. Taking the law into one's own hands is, in real life, sometimes required, in order to defend one's self or another human being against imminent death or serious physical injury. I'm paraphrasing this from the North Carolina law that spells out when deadly force is justified by a private citizen. I was required to learn the letter of that law as part of my training for a concealed weapons permit. Cut the Punisher crap, it's making you seem like your entire education comes from Hollywood.

It's all based around a 'what if' ideal. What if a criminal walked in with a knife? What if a criminal walked in with a pistol? What if a criminal walked in with a rifle? What if a criminal walked in with a Bazooka? What if a criminal walked in with a Laser gun? Where does it end? It doesn't end.

Okay, ridiculous bazooka and laser gun statements aside, these are good questions, what if a criminal shows up wherever you are with a knife/gun/big heavy stick/etc.? What are you going to do? What if you happen to have a wife and children with you? What then? Such things do happen. In that situation, as husband and father, I am not only personally responsible for my own safety but for that of my family as well. Being unprepared and unable to protect them from any threat would be gross negligence on my part. The cost and time of becoming licensed and properly trained to safely carry and effectively use a firearm is a small price to pay. No person can be prepared for every situation, we can only prepare ourselves to the best of our ability. After all, 'tis far better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Do you honestly think that if, heaven forbid, such a dire situation should ever arise for you personally, that the police will magically appear to save the day? Despite your condescension I do hope that you never find yourself in such a situation, for your sake. I prefer to be prepared to the fullest extent as is allowed by the laws of my locality.

Maybe you should have checked K-mart for bullets.

I can't. They've all gone out of business. Yep that Moore accomplished a lot, didn't he?

Youre right if our government ever comes out and sticks us in concentration camps won't we have egg on our face for giving up our guns!

While there certainly is a history of such things, I'm not necessarily talking about the government rounding up all the people into camps. (Usually it's just those that such a govt. deems "undesireable" after all.)
But the bottom line is, no person can know what the future holds, for themselves, their nation, or the world.
Just ask the nice people who hosted the world at the 1984 Winter Olympics, in what was then the prosperous, beautiful, multiethnic city of Sarajevo.

[Luciferous]

Australian law also has sections which justify the use of force and sometimes deadly force by a citizen. What we don't do is encourage everyone to own a gun, because the fact of the matter is that you don't need one.

When I watch the news at night I rarely see a story about a hold up, and the ones that I do see hardly ever involve a gun. Guns aren't as accessible in Australia because we don't have a paranoid mentality that says we need to go and dish out our own type of justice. Our police force is nothing special, but you don't deal with criminals in Australia unless you choose to take part in crime.

The Government by-back didn't disarm the Australian public, the Government offered to buy the guns of the owners at a good price in exchange.

And where has this pro-gun mentality gotten America? What positives can you take from this?

[clutch-monkey]

hey look at me i'm new
america could use improved gun laws but i know in australia the laws are pretty much perfect at the moment. since semi-autos have been banned, and the larger calibre handguns as well(after monash university), there have been no US-style school shootings. shooters are allowed to by weapons that suit their target/hunting/skeet purposes but are not adaptable for killing sprees
P.S. i hope i've posted this right, i've never used a forum before

[clutch-monkey]

not sure i got my point across correctly. i'm just saying australia has better gun laws without crippling the shooters community. basically only the core of serious shooters and hunters own firearms, whereas in the US u can buy one for a lark

[Luciferous]

While there certainly is a history of such things, I'm not necessarily talking about the government rounding up all the people into camps. (Usually it's just those that such a govt. deems "undesireable" after all.)
But the bottom line is, no person can know what the future holds, for themselves, their nation, or the world.
Just ask the nice people who hosted the world at the 1984 Winter Olympics, in what was then the prosperous, beautiful, multiethnic city of Sarajevo.

Australia is cleary a first world country. The fact that you would even suggest that our Government could put us in a situation where a lack of guns puts us at a disadvantage is pretty insulting. If you wanna go play with guns then go join the Army, if not don't worry about it. Even in this day and age with the bullshit terror warnings, Australia is located directly south of Indonesia, the largest muslim nation in the world. With all the hype about muslim extremists, I don't feel the need to go out and teach myself how to kill a man out of a paranoid delusion.

[clutch-monkey]

sorry Luciferous but cos i'm new to forums i can't tell if ur actually talking to me
anyway, just some facts: to get my firearms licence i had to be 18, undertake a weapons safety course etc. for my first rifle (used for target shooting) there was a 28day waiting period, plus another two weeks as they checked my record. self defense is not a valid reason for a gun, thats my view and the police's.

[Luciferous]

Nah I was talking to cls12vg30 about the American right to bear arms. Check out the last couple pages to see where the conversation ended up.

[clutch-monkey]

thanx

[crisis]

Where did you hear that? Did Michael Moore tell you?
Funny, I walked into Wal-Mart yesterday and they had a decent selection of 9mm Luger (9x19mm, not to be confused with 9x18mm Makarov or 9x17, also known as 9mm short or .380 ACP.) Not to mention several other major pistol calibers such as .40 S&W and .45 ACP, and a nice variety of rifle and shotgun calibers.

He was talking about KMart. If you think a shopping centre selling high powered ammo is ok thats your problem.

I notice a lot of Aussies are chiming in here. Well, you've already let your government disarm you, so you guys have got what you want. I just hope you REALLY trust that government.

What difference does trusting our govenrment make? Oh thats right we need to arm ouselves to rise up against the oppressors. Get real.

It's none of your business how easy it is to get guns in the U.S. None of our guns can shoot across the Pacific, so don't worry about it. My votes and my political activist activities will go to preserve the right to keep and bear arms until the last breath leaves my body. It is that right that guarantees the right to free speech, free press, and all the other rights we hold so dear.

Blah blah, free speech, freedom. You dont have ultimate freedom and neither does anyone else. Humans can tbe trusted with the freedom to do everything they want. You just happen to have freedom to allow more people to carry dangerous weapons due to some antique law and a lot of powerful people whome you may also question their trustworthyness. I dont really care what weapons you have but last time I checked this was a forum to express opinions. So are you saying if we dont agree with you youre not interested in our opinion. Argue the points if you can and if you cant try to refrain from ignorance and dismissiveness. There are a lot of Americans who would like to see less firearms in their country but I can easily guess what you think of them.

As for kids being shot, last year more kids died playing football that were accidentally shot, I suppose we ought to outlaw football.

Crap.

Of course, the purpose of news is ratings. Of course they don't report all the times when the presence of a firearm in the hands of an intended victim prevents a crime. It would be best not to take as gospel everything the news tells you, or rather, you should consider all the things they don't tell you.

Especially when it does not support your argument.