The State of The Car

[RacingManiac]

Actually that is interesting, I was also thinking about stuff like that. I drive a 3 door hatch right now, its small car, not that fast, relatively light on its feet(by US standard, probably obese by EU standard). The car is nimble, tossable, I can charge at a green light right turn, or drive spiritly on the rare nice piece of road I see with little worry or consequence(relatively speaking). I go to autoX on weekends and still trundle around town normally and get decent(not great) gas mileage. I look at cars like 370Z, or Corvette, or Camaro or something, all of which are probably faster and more grip, and RWD and so on. But I can't see myself doing the same thing I do now with a hatchback. I can see I can get that satisfaction of stumping on the gas and push back in my seat, but I can't see me enjoying that nimbleness that I feel with the car now. I drive my dad's G35 sometimes even now, and no contest that is just plainly a faster car, but it doesn't shrink to you or make you feel in totally in control. And I just won't push it as much as I'd with my GTI. And the G even has sticker summer tire....

Now in my current life situation, being no kids, single, renting an apartment and have a steady income. I have no incentive of getting a bigger car, even if it means a faster ride. What I have now works well for me. I guess as my priority changes that might change, it'll move me to a bigger car, and if I can afford it a bigger performance car. And when your life situation moves to a point where you can have a "toy", then those fancy sportscar will come in play....

On that note, a 2nd car to have for me if I can afford it that I can see being a hoot to own and fully exploit, maybe something like a S2000. In my situation if I have more dough to spend, a RS3 or 1M might be fun....or cheaper, the rally style car like STI or EVO, as I am still very much intrigued by them....

[Kitdy]

No Genesis Coupe for you RM?

[RacingManiac]

No likey the penis shape side window.....lol

I still have some cultural based prejudice to Korean cars also.....

[Ferrer]

Actually that is interesting, I was also thinking about stuff like that. I drive a 3 door hatch right now, its small car, not that fast, relatively light on its feet(by US standard, probably obese by EU standard). The car is nimble, tossable, I can charge at a green light right turn, or drive spiritly on the rare nice piece of road I see with little worry or consequence(relatively speaking). I go to autoX on weekends and still trundle around town normally and get decent(not great) gas mileage. I look at cars like 370Z, or Corvette, or Camaro or something, all of which are probably faster and more grip, and RWD and so on. But I can't see myself doing the same thing I do now with a hatchback. I can see I can get that satisfaction of stumping on the gas and push back in my seat, but I can't see me enjoying that nimbleness that I feel with the car now. I drive my dad's G35 sometimes even now, and no contest that is just plainly a faster car, but it doesn't shrink to you or make you feel in totally in control. And I just won't push it as much as I'd with my GTI. And the G even has sticker summer tire....

I think we should then separate advancement in terms of transportation and advancement in terms of feel. In the former I think the car industry has made definite progress, but I'm not so sure in the latter, at least in the last 15 or 20 years. Clear examples of this are the New Mini Mk 1 and Mk 2, and the three generations of Ford Focus. Each time they substituted cars they improved, but some of the magic was lost. And magic is what enthusiasts search for in a car. It doesn't matter if it's a 15 grand econobox or a 1 and half mill supercar.

Now in my current life situation, being no kids, single, renting an apartment and have a steady income. I have no incentive of getting a bigger car, even if it means a faster ride. What I have now works well for me. I guess as my priority changes that might change, it'll move me to a bigger car, and if I can afford it a bigger performance car. And when your life situation moves to a point where you can have a "toy", then those fancy sportscar will come in play....

But what if you can't afford two cars? Or even one expensive car? Then you have to choose very carefully because you might end with something fast but uninvolving and numb. And it seems that as time goes by options are actually dwindling, not increasing.

On that note, a 2nd car to have for me if I can afford it that I can see being a hoot to own and fully exploit, maybe something like a S2000. In my situation if I have more dough to spend, a RS3 or 1M might be fun....or cheaper, the rally style car like STI or EVO, as I am still very much intrigued by them....

Nah all of those are far too complicated, complex, and have too many devices to remove the human element from the equation. Except the Honda and perhaps the BMWs. But without getting too much into the discussion, four wheel drive is bad place to start...

[RacingManiac]

See thats what I think your standard is too lofty and unrealistic. The driver is being shielded more from the actual connection, but that is not the choice of the OEs to do that, more they are forced to do that due to the governmental requirements. They have a gross trickling effect on everything on the car. The cars got heavier, it has more impact protection, that requires heavier duty brake, requires more brake boosting, requires more power assist in steering. New CAFE-style standard, requires durastic boost in fuel economy, leads to electrification of many accessories, leads to the disconnect of the electro-power steering. You CAN'T actually build that car from past anymore.

At the same token, much of the past "feel" may well be dynamically flawed but giving it "character". Old school turbo charged car for instance, without much of the modern boost controller of sophisticated electronic tuning, they may be laggy or peaky, but when they kick in you feel it. Is that a disconnect to human element, or is it just bad technology side effect? Or the old torque steer wonder that are being cured nowadays by new front end geometry design? Or old cars with sport suspension tuning that weaves and bobs down the road, but handles great in corner? A lot of these are gone because modern, passive shocks(not electronic) have found ways to achieve better performance in ride and handling(frequency depended damping). What about 911s....

I feel a lot of what you are asking is to stop progressing and just build cars from decades ago. And that I just cannot agree with as an engineer and as a car enthusiasts. You cannot ignore the stuff you learn and not improve on stuff that has flaws....that's just not progress....

I more than agree though that some of the cars now just have way more stuff than you need, the gaziilion TCS/ESP setting, or the super torque shuffling diff AWD cars. But I don't you a modern enthusiast is lacking choice in those regards. For every AYC Evo/STI out there you still have a 370Z, for the RS3 out there you still have Focus RS. For the M5s out there you still have a CTS-V, for the GTRs out there you still have the ZR1, and for the 458s out there you still have a GT3RS. If anything you have more choice to what kind of performance car that you want. Instead of being just limited by what is possible.

[Ferrer]

I just want to make it clear that I'm not against progress. I'm all for clever engineering solutions, and cars like the Toyota iQ, the Mitsubishi i or the Audi A2. I find direct fuel injection or full LED lights as good things, and things I want to have in my car. I even think that the Honda CR-Z could be a very good concept given some development. Even traction and stability control can be good done properly.

What I am against is about progress that detracts from the driving experience. I mean things like active steering, lane departure warning and all those sort of things. If you can't drive properly you shouldn't be driving in the first place, and I think it's better to pay full attention rather than rely on those systems. Those systems can give average people a false sense of security, and that's not a good thing.

And then there are those gadgets which are simply unnecessary. Things that have already been mentioned here like internet connectivity. I do not want to enter internet in my car. It's not a mobile work station, or a room in which to see my e-mails. It's car and it's meant to be driven. All, so-called, progress that does not contribute to the driving exprience is not really progress in my opinion.

In other cases though it's really a lost battle because of regulations. Like fuel economy standards which mandate electric everything, and as a result feel undeniably suffers. Altough, fuel economy has a desired side effect, which is trying to make everything lighter, and that's a good thing. This also has a side effect, which is bringing investigation in newer lighter and stronger (that's thanks to the safety regulations) materials, and this again is the sort of progress I'm all for and that I want to have in my car.

Thankfully, as I said, in Europe we still have pretty basic cars, which means that even if they don't feel exactly the same we can still experience some of that old magic. They also bring basic equipment, basic engine, basic everything, which means they aren't further weighted down with unnecessary equipment and that their tyres still have normal sizes and not the width and diameter of a 400bhp sportscar. You can even experience this in relatively recent, fast, powerful cars like the Mk 1 New Mini.

[henk4]

What I am against is about progress that detracts from the driving experience. I mean things like active steering, lane departure warning and all those sort of things. If you can't drive properly you shouldn't be driving in the first place, and I think it's better to pay full attention rather than rely on those systems. Those systems can give average people a false sense of security, and that's not a good thing.

The same was said when the safety belt was introduced, and driving with a belt is still considered in some cultures as definitely uncool, and a proof that you can't drive.
P.S : I have my lane departure warning system permanently switched off, as it starts to work when you do not use your indicator when switching lanes, which is rather irritating.

[RacingManiac]

Having driven my father's 2011 Infiniti M with all those gizmos, I am glad it comes with a button to switch them all off....

IMO they can have all the stuff they want just so that they can list them in a feature set(or better yet, make them optional, in this case the car was bought off a deal and came with all the stuff loaded for lots of $$ off sticker), as long as you can switch them off its fine with me...

[Ferrer]

Europeans are better than Americans because they choose the option in their cars wisely.

Why doesnt Europe care about infotainment?

Discuss.

[NSXType-R]

Europeans are better than Americans because they choose the option in their cars wisely.

Why doesnt Europe care about infotainment?

Discuss.

Ford just thinks it'll set themselves apart from the pack.

Their products are actually pretty decent, but I couldn't give a rat's ass about their SYNC garbage.

[RacingManiac]

Hows the usage of "Smartphone" in EU? Smartphones are so prevalent now in US its important for all these integration to every aspect of consumer's like, including cars.

And what constitute infotainment? Don't most VW now have some kind of multimedia enabled touchscreen system?(I don't but I am cheap and I buy the cheapest pacakge)...

[Ferrer]

I don't know about the actual figures but I know both people with and without (including myself) smartphones. I'm not sure it is 50/50, but it could be easily 65/35.

Also there's the small problem of American systems not actually coping with European speeds...

Ford SYNC modified for autobahn speeds

[f6fhellcat13]

The 991's Ring time made me think of something; are cars currently getting quicker at a faster rate then they ever have?
It seems every minorly performance-oriented car is chopping seconds off of its zero to sixty and slashing tens of seconds off its Ring times, if its manufacturer is into that sort of thing.
Surely tire technology is partly to blame, but I would guess that the majority of this new speed is coming from the further integration of electronics into all of a car's driving systems. Will objective performance plateau once again when this integration is total and complete?

[kingofthering]

Speaking of which, it's interesting how the Nissan GT-R vs. Porsche 911 vs. Corvette ZR1 battle waged in 2008-9 set off this fervor over mid 7's yet a mid 7' two-three years later is basically "average" for a performance road car. Now you have the Lexus LF-A setting a 7:14 and a Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR setting a 7:12.

[Ferrer]

Well, I'm not entirely sure electronics have improved the performance. I mean would an experienced racing driver be faster with the electronics on or off, in a road car? What they have definitely made, though, is performance more accessible for useless driver. Stepping into a Ferrari 458 and going very fast without getting killed or destroying the car is very easy, even if you are plastic surgeon in California, thanks to the flappy paddle gearbox, the multiple-way traction control, ABS, stability management programme control, electronic diff and so on. Try doing the same in a Lamborghini Countach LP400S and the outcome wouldn't probably be the same...

As a personal opinion making performance so accessible, even in seriously focused sportscars is wrong. High performance driving is something that should be achieved after a period learning, followed by hard work to understand what makes your car go fast and what actually slows you down. It should be an achievement in a way, something that requires an effort, not something you replicate from what you do as if you drove in the Play Station.