Last minute Koenigsegg, Lamborghini and Porsche news from Geneva ...

[Dino Scuderia]

This front drive BMW thing. Apparently it isn't all that new...

The craziest damn thing you'll hear today: 80% of BMW 1 Series owners think their car is FWD — Autoblog

Proof that BMW is no longer the 'ultimate driving machine'.

A sad picture of where BMW has gone to.

[henk4]

Proof that BMW is no longer the 'ultimate driving machine'.

A sad picture of where BMW has gone to.

You may also now meet any oncoming BMW with great suspicion as obviously people may lack some essential vehicle control training....if they don't know where the drive sits...

[Revo]

You may also now meet any oncoming BMW with great suspicion as obviously people may lack some essential vehicle control training....if they don't know where the drive sits...

You are confusing BMW with Toyota.

According to recent study, 54% of Toyota owners don't know how to stop their cars.

[henk4]

You are confusing BMW with Toyota.

According to recent study, 54% of Toyota owners don't know how to stop their cars.

study by GM?

[f6fhellcat13]

Albert, which are the driven wheels on your tractor?

[Ferrer]

Albert, which are the driven wheels on your tractor?

I think the rear ones...

I personally don't get all the hate with Bimmers, though.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I don't think it's the BMW's themselves. I think it's more the clueless owners who parade around their purchase like some sort of badge of honour loudly proclaiming "LOOK! I HAVE MONEY! AND I'M AN INDIVIDUAL!" when thats plainly not the case.

The best way to look at it I suppose is that the general public think BMW's are driven by wankers, and despite efforts to shift that tag onto Audi drivers, and despite the cars not being horrible to drive, the stigma remains.

[Ferrer]

I can undestand that. It's a common problem that afflicts all expensive german cars. But while Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs may have something going for them, it's Audis which seem to have nothing to offer and yet get all the credit regardless. Yes, many imbeciles drive BMWs, but I'd say that even if all the group hasn't shifted to Audis a large number has.

In any case, we are among car enthusiasts, and supposed to get over this sort of considerations. BMWs are great driving cars regardless of everythinkg else. Why should we hate them? In a way it's the imbecile's problem if they don't know which wheels are are driven, we do and we enjoy the Munich-built cars everytime we drive them. Everything else, including image, should be irrelevant to us. Even if BMWs aren't our type of cars.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

But image is part of the experience of buying a premium vehicle - otherwise all cars would cost exactly the same in their class. you pay more to play with some more expensive gadgets and wear a nicer badge - and the same is true of car enthusiasts.

I personally love BMW - I find the mix of engineering and driving pleasure intoxicating - but what I don't like is the assorted tack on's BMW themselves have gone to great lengths to associate with the brand - odd styling, expensive options, and an overriding image of smug.

I choose older BMW's because the initial gloss of smug has been wiped away with years of road use - and as such the ability for me to enjoy the driving experience in relative anonymity arises.

[Ferrer]

I disagree partly. Yes image is part of the buying experience, something that makes Audis and Ferraris so unatractive in my opinion, but in no way should decide a purchase or determine the abilities of a certain car. You say that if image was the same all cars would cost the same, well I disagree.

I precisely like BMWs because despite being more expensive, they offer you something else. They offer you an excellent driving experience and great engineering. So I can definitely understand why they cost more, because they offer more. However, Audis (and other cars, but let's stick with them) don't offer more in terms of driving experience and I can't quite see why they are worth the premium they charge. Maybe that's why I can't understand Audis.

In short, I'm not against paying more for a car but it has to offer something to me. And image simply won't do.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I concur the image must be met with substance, but the problem I have is that the Image BMW have recently acquired has little to do with the substance of the car.

[Kitdy]

So Ferrer, you are telling me that a major issue with you not wanting a Ferrari is the image they project? Poor form. Modern Ferraris by all accounts are great cars to drive - who cares if you look like a douchebag driving one? You know why you bought it.

Same story with BMWs albeit on a smaller extent - the joke is they are all assholes but if you happen to like them, why should you care what strangers or even your friend think of you when you drive them? I think if you are a car nut, you should do away with image and focus on what really matters: the drive.

And yes I know you have problems with Ferraris that go past the image issue.

[Ferrer]

The problem with Ferrari is that at this price point there's so much choice, that if something doesn't float you boat even in the slightest there's plenty of other choices that can do similar, and as a result you don't have to care or want Ferraris.

But in the BMW price zone, especially the cheaper ones, there's hardly much choice. In a way, and of course speaking from the enthusiasts point of view, cheaper BMWs are in a bit of a class of thier own, at least in Europe. If you want a practical, great driving rear wheel drive car you can choose a BMW... or a BMW. So, even more than in the case of Ferraris you overlook the image problems because you can't go anywhere else.

[wwgkd]

With fuel prices the way they are on your side of the Atlantic diesels don't have much of a market.

The price difference has been fluctuating quite a bit. There was a boom in diesel cars, so it went up, then new diesel standards, so it went up more, they're building more of the right kind of refineries (I forget the name but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to so I can't be bothered to look it up) so it's now going down. In point of fact diesel usually still makes sense if you tow a lot or if you drive a lot.

If people would get over thinking diesels are bad for the environment and recognize that they're at least as good as hybrids, I believe there will be more of a change. Especially considering that biodiesel is no longer just filtered waste oil from McDonalds and that there's a growing infrasctucture for it here.

Proof that BMW is no longer the 'ultimate driving machine'.

A sad picture of where BMW has gone to.

Just because an idiot buys a car doesn't mean it's not still a good car. Every car ever made has been bought by an idiot, which is more of a reflection on how many idiots there are out there than how good the cars are. Mustangs with chains on the front wheels are not an uncommon sight in parts of california when it snows, so I don't think that this is an unusual phenomenon.

I can undestand that. It's a common problem that afflicts all expensive german cars. But while Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs may have something going for them, it's Audis which seem to have nothing to offer and yet get all the credit regardless. Yes, many imbeciles drive BMWs, but I'd say that even if all the group hasn't shifted to Audis a large number has.

In any case, we are among car enthusiasts, and supposed to get over this sort of considerations. BMWs are great driving cars regardless of everythinkg else. Why should we hate them? In a way it's the imbecile's problem if they don't know which wheels are are driven, we do and we enjoy the Munich-built cars everytime we drive them. Everything else, including image, should be irrelevant to us. Even if BMWs aren't our type of cars.

This.

I believe that argument should apply to Ferraris as well, but I am a long time fan regardles of what other people are wanting or buying.

[Ferrer]

The price difference has been fluctuating quite a bit. There was a boom in diesel cars, so it went up, then new diesel standards, so it went up more, they're building more of the right kind of refineries (I forget the name but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to so I can't be bothered to look it up) so it's now going down. In point of fact diesel usually still makes sense if you tow a lot or if you drive a lot.

If people would get over thinking diesels are bad for the environment and recognize that they're at least as good as hybrids, I believe there will be more of a change. Especially considering that biodiesel is no longer just filtered waste oil from McDonalds and that there's a growing infrasctucture for it here.

Even so, at 1,077€/litre (filled in yesterday) diesel makes more sense than ever. That's $6.70/gal and it is expensive, and it even worse for petrol. However in the US, were petrol is much cheaper diesel don't have huge advantage they have in Europe. Yes, they may be better for specific applications and still make sense financially if you drive a lot.

But in many cases, even in Europe you still have to drive a lot to break even in the diesel v petrol comparison so in the US this number will still be even greater. I remember we did calculate some numbers for some European cars in an old thread time ago, but I can't remember which.

In any case you still had to drive at least 100.000km for the diesel to take over the petrol, which is a lot. And even so, I'm sure than in many cases here we have petrolitis, that's buying a diesel because it's more frugal even if you only use the car to get the groceries and back, in the same way there's the aversion diesel in the US.

Furthermore there's more conditionants, other than price, that make diesels suitable to Europe. We have lots of twisty roads, which means we usually don't have steady speeds, lots of braking and accelerating, and also our motorway have usually high-ish average speeds. And in those conditions the diesel shines. The possibly single greatest thing about diesel compared to petrol, is that it's hardly affected by the way you drive. That means that the variance between eco driving and lunatic driving in terms of fuel consuption is small. This doesn't happen with petrols. They are very senstive to the way you drive.

On the other hand the US has usually straight roads in which you can maintain a steady speed easily and in which such speed usually isn't very high. Those are good coditions for petrol engines. This condition are the ones that don't higlight diesels positive attributes and that hide petrol's negatives. As a result your need for a diesel is possibly quite a lot lower than it is in Europe, which makes demmand much lower. Also in large congested areas, of which the US has quite a few, benefit hybrids more than they do diesels. Hence another reason for petrol supremacy.

Unfortunately it's not what we prefer, but what we need. To be brutally honest I would love my car to have a V8, pushords or not. But instead I have to make do with a small turbocharged four cylinder diesel, because at the end of the day it is what suits me most. Of course, we are car enthusiasts and we usually go that little bit further to bent those needs a bit in pursuit of what we really enjoy, but the great majority is normally guided by those needs.

And it's really the majority which dictates, in the end, what is and what isn't available.