When did it all die?

[midnightdorifto]

It certainly took a hit when they made it a business. Seems like back in the day teams didn't care about the fan or the sponsors, it was about winning. Now they want to make it easier for the fan to watch and follow the action and they need sponsors to keep their teams afloat, if the cost wasn't so high and everyone wasn't hell bent on keeping fans and appeasing the costs and the bosses then motorsport would be better off.

Gone are the days where fans had to clamor through woods and camp out to get a glimpse of their favorite driver or team. Now it's check into a cushy hotel and buy an expensive pass or ticket.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but professional racing was always a business. It has always been about money and sponsorships. Granted, when manufacturers still had the "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" mentality, it was a whole lot more glamorous because engineers and drivers had virtually unlimited budgets and resources behind them. But manufacturers cannot afford this type of sponsorship anymore as it doesn't pay out - and at the end of the day, they are accountable to their shareholders and cannot support unprofitable activities.

Racing does not exist in a vacuum - every sponsorship matters to drivers and crews as it takes money to make these events possible. And regulatory bodies cannot pay for insurance, tracks, and all those other administrative functions without filling the stands and signing TV contracts, so they will write the rules to make racing as entertaining (not competitive, not glamorous, not with any attempt to hanker to days gone by, but just entertaining). So you see regulatory bodies like the FIA following the NASCAR formula of making cars as equal as possible, making team budgets as affordable as possible, and setting up championships to get maximum TV viewership. Really, this is the only way that professional racing could survive at such a high level.

With regards to all those posts about racing dying with the addition of safety measures being implemented, I'd like to say that is possibly the most asinine thing I've ever heard. Le Mans got chicanes because people were dying. Group B was canceled because the drivers' and co-drivers' remains could only be identified by their dental records. F1 got safety measures because the drivers were pushing for it - just have a look at the efforts of Sir Jackie Stewart after he got out of racing. Aryton Senna's death was a tragedy to the sport - anything to prevent that from happening again should be welcomed. When it comes to glamour vs. safety, I'll take safety - the sport depends on it.

It will be fun for about 2 months and then all events will be banned for mass casualties on and around the track. This thread is packed with realism.

+1

Now, that's not to say racing is dead. Professional racing isn't as entertaining in some respects as it used to be - I'm as much a fan of unlimited development and Group C rules as can be implemented and that's just not feasible at the current moment. But amateur racing is, as it always has been, far more entertaining. If you think racing is dead, go to your local track for an SCCA or NASA event or head out to the woods for an amateur rally and then come back here and post about the "death of motorsports." I bet you'll find it far more difficult.

[f6fhellcat13]

Racing cars are quicker now than they have ever been before.

And more expensive, would be my guess.

I do have something of a nostalgia for the older racing car, just as I do for older road cars, but, like Revo said, neither of them could successfully exist as a modern product.

Though it might be harder to carry out, give cars much more stringent safety regulations, but much more technical freedom. That is a big problem that I have with F1. In these days of millions of dollars chasing after diminishing returns, the teams are so entrenched that the biggest spender wins and innovation shines over invention. (Though this year has shaken things up a bit)
I am not saying innovation is a bad thing, as the car is essentially unchanged on the most basic level, despite being adapted to the climate of the times, but invention is so much more glamorous and exciting. Coming up with something entirely new instead of improving old ideas just seems better for the spectacle of it all.

[LeonOfTheDead]

And more expensive, would be my guess.

I do have something of a nostalgia for the older racing car, just as I do for older road cars, but, like Revo said, neither of them could successfully exist as a modern product.

Though it might be harder to carry out, give cars much more stringent safety regulations, but much more technical freedom. That is a big problem that I have with F1. In these days of millions of dollars chasing after diminishing returns, the teams are so entrenched that the biggest spender wins and innovation shines over invention. (Though this year has shaken things up a bit)
I am not saying innovation is a bad thing, as the car is essentially unchanged on the most basic level, despite being adapted to the climate of the times, but invention is so much more glamorous and exciting. Coming up with something entirely new instead of improving old ideas just seems better for the spectacle of it all.

and it's indeed what happened this year in F1, despite being forced inventions.

[Ferrer]

I also agree with the notion that more powerful are different from better racing. So no bring back the Group B rally cars of the turbocharged Formula 1 single seaters, this would do no good, and as has already been pointed out cars today are already faster than those.

However I do think that the challenge element inherent to motorsport has been somewhat removed at least in part. Racing used to be the ultimate test for man and machine, whether it was gruelling endurance races or vertiginous speed on the Finnish woods. The advances in safety are all welcomed but I can't help thinking that a bit of danger is necessary to make racing better.

There's also another element, and it is the bussiness side. Back in the day racing drivers were gentlemen. They were competitive but never annoyingly arrogant or selfish. I remember reading articles about 50's racing and it was superb. After the grand prix the driver which had finished second would pick a restaurant and the winner would pay the meal. And IIRC one of the championships Fangio won was because Collins gave him his car to finish the race, Fangio had retired, and he said to Fangio that he was young and could win championships in the future.

That's a pair of things I miss from contemporary motorsport.

[fpv_gtho]

There's also another element, and it is the bussiness side. Back in the day racing drivers were gentlemen. They were competitive but never annoyingly arrogant or selfish.

You could extend that to people/society in general though.

[Ferrer]

You could extend that to people/society in general though.

I know. Which is quite sad.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I also agree with the notion that more powerful are different from better racing. So no bring back the Group B rally cars of the turbocharged Formula 1 single seaters, this would do no good, and as has already been pointed out cars today are already faster than those.

However I do think that the challenge element inherent to motorsport has been somewhat removed at least in part. Racing used to be the ultimate test for man and machine, whether it was gruelling endurance races or vertiginous speed on the Finnish woods. The advances in safety are all welcomed but I can't help thinking that a bit of danger is necessary to make racing better.

There's also another element, and it is the bussiness side. Back in the day racing drivers were gentlemen. They were competitive but never annoyingly arrogant or selfish. I remember reading articles about 50's racing and it was superb. After the grand prix the driver which had finished second would pick a restaurant and the winner would pay the meal. And IIRC one of the championships Fangio won was because Collins gave him his car to finish the race, Fangio had retired, and he said to Fangio that he was young and could win championships in the future.

That's a pair of things I miss from contemporary motorsport.

In the scenes of Gran Prix in which actual drivers of the sixties are featured (Graham Hill, Bruce McLaren among others), they are seen chatting about the race as they were friends before of an amateurish soccer match in the backyard, or partying after the race as if everyone had won the event.
And the best part is that they weren't acting, just doing what they were usually doing.

[Rockefella]

I think motorsport is going to change drastically within 5-10 years.. just not sure how. We've reached what I'd consider the culmination of intense speeds while keeping drivers safe, resulting in shake-ups in motorsport to liven up competition through cost-cutting or mechanical measures. Be it engine regulations, restricted aero, limited testing, less funding, et. al. Formula 1 may be the keystone to this mansion of mediocracy in racing with the power-struggle that's gone on between the money grubbing clowns up-top and the FOTA led by all-mighty Ferrari. If it continues and Formula 1 burns to the ground (temporarily?) it would most likely serve as a wake-up call to the rest of the automotive world. I don't think there is a definitive answer that can time warp racing back to the mid-20th century, but a few aspects have to be reconsidered.

- Management: Demands too much. Ticket prices are too high. Merchandise too expensive. Cost to compete is far too high. The further this goes along, the greater the chasm between the lower and upper class of motorsport. Instead of seeing privateers throughout racing, you'll have only Average Joes' driving in local SCCA type series while the manufacturers will frequent LMS and F1. Upper-tier racing is meant to be enjoyed by everyone, not just the playboys that can take a week off from their acting work to sit VIP at a race while being catered to by sponsors. FFS, North America doesn't even have an F1 race because the FIA figures the profit line isn't high enough.

- Sponsors: Goes hand-in-hand with management. Cost to compete is high, so teams go to sponsors with rediculous requests for money. Sponsors agree, but with a lot of fine print. They demand a paint scheme, demand results, and influence who is in charge of or behind the wheel of the team. There's a reason Takuma Sato had a race seat at Honda and Narain Karthikeyan got a chance and they can thank the money trees for such.

- Tracks: Don't tame Spa. Stop building in the middle east. Bring back the historic goodies. This obsession with asphalt run-offs and 5-star hotel/track accomidations is going too far. Take out the second chicane on Le Sarthe and allow fans closer to the action in rallying. The best time I ever had in racing was watching a rally in Pennsylvania at 3 a.m. in the pitch black while it was PISSING rain. Hundreds of eager fans all muddied up watching these forest heroes pass by at incredible speeds will never be matched again because of the stupid designated spectator areas 100 feet from the action.

- Drivers and Teams: None of them will ever see or read this, but quit with the Politically Correct Bullshit. In F1 every driver says 'for sure', in NASCAR they name every sponsor on their car when asked about the drive, and throughout everyone deserves thanks and praise in post-race interviews otherwise a hefty fine and media assault can be expected. It's like watching a Kindergarten play.

My 4 cents.

[LeonOfTheDead]

My 4 cents.

I'll take them.

[Revo]

There's also another element, and it is the bussiness side. Back in the day racing drivers were gentlemen. They were competitive but never annoyingly arrogant or selfish.

You could extend that to people/society in general though.

I know. Which is quite sad.

Howcome you young ones have this retirement home kind of mentality?

[Ferrer]

Howcome you young ones have this retirement home kind of mentality?

So drivers fighting and insulting each other and being primma donnas is ok?

[f6fhellcat13]

Tracks: Don't tame Spa. Stop building in the middle east. Bring back the historic goodies. This obsession with asphalt run-offs and 5-star hotel/track accomidations is going too far. Take out the second chicane on Le Sarthe and allow fans closer to the action in rallying. The best time I ever had in racing was watching a rally in Pennsylvania at 3 a.m. in the pitch black while it was PISSING rain. Hundreds of eager fans all muddied up watching these forest heroes pass by at incredible speeds will never be matched again because of the stupid designated spectator areas 100 feet from the action.

It's not the Middle East that's the problem, per se. I think the overbearing need for opulence which seems to make the design of the grandstand more important than the track itself is at fault. And this of course is largely due to the rather-idiotic megabucks circus that F1 has become.
I don't think all of the old tracks are irreplaceably good either. Monaco, and I know I'll get some heat for this, bores me to death. Having driven it virtually and watched a good number of quali sessions, it is a phenomenal and fun track to drive, but it never seems to deliver on race day.

- Drivers and Teams: None of them will ever see or read this, but quit with the Politically Correct Bullshit. In F1 every driver says 'for sure', in NASCAR they name every sponsor on their car when asked about the drive, and throughout everyone deserves thanks and praise in post-race interviews otherwise a hefty fine and media assault can be expected. It's like watching a Kindergarten play.

I'm glad someone else noticed this, I thought I was going ****ing nuts.
The problem with these drivers is that they've been programmed from a child-abusingly early age to be automatons at the service of whichever team manager/sponsor is currently lording over them. All of the feeder series further institutionalize and officialize the racing. I think Stirling Moss said that the best drivers of today are about on par with the good drivers of yesteryear, but the worst drivers of today are much better than their midcentury counterparts. When I first heard this I though, that's a good thing , racing is progressing and skills are increased. But as I though about it, though realizing that on its own this was a good thing, I saw that it was endemic of the growing homogeneity in all thing racing today, be it the cars, the tracks, the drivers, the teams, the strategies, the works...

[Revo]

So drivers fighting and insulting each other and being primma donnas is ok?

Racing drivers have always been ruthless, paranoiac and bit mental in general - that is the only way to succeed.

Haven't you ever heard old adage ‘nice guys finish last’?

[Rockefella]

It's not the Middle East that's the problem, per se. I think the overbearing need for opulence which seems to make the design of the grandstand more important than the track itself is at fault. And this of course is largely due to the rather-idiotic megabucks circus that F1 has become.
I don't think all of the old tracks are irreplaceably good either. Monaco, and I know I'll get some heat for this, bores me to death. Having driven it virtually and watched a good number of quali sessions, it is a phenomenal and fun track to drive, but it never seems to deliver on race day.

Agreed. I only put the middle-east because that's where most of the available money is.

I'm glad someone else noticed this, I thought I was going ****ing nuts.
The problem with these drivers is that they've been programmed from a child-abusingly early age to be automatons at the service of whichever team manager/sponsor is currently lording over them. All of the feeder series further institutionalize and officialize the racing. I think Stirling Moss said that the best drivers of today are about on par with the good drivers of yesteryear, but the worst drivers of today are much better than their midcentury counterparts. When I first heard this I though, that's a good thing , racing is progressing and skills are increased. But as I though about it, though realizing that on its own this was a good thing, I saw that it was endemic of the growing homogeneity in all thing racing today, be it the cars, the tracks, the drivers, the teams, the strategies, the works...

Ditto.

[Ferrer]

Racing drivers have always been ruthless, paranoiac and bit mental in general - that is the only way to succeed.

Haven't you ever heard old adage ‘nice guys finish last’?

Fangio was a gentleman and a great driver. Perhaps the greatest ever. And Hawtorn, and Collins and Moss and the Bentley Boys...