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Thread: Will we see a comeback of flat or boxer engine sports or super cars?

  1. #1
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    Will we see a comeback of flat or boxer engine sports or super cars?

    The 911 had the engine mounted in the wrong place yet its low center of gravity improved its handling quite a lot.
    Ferrari testarossa handling was said to be quite impressive for its days.
    And you can indeed feel the low gravity centre in the Subaru Impreza
    BMW and Honda Goldwing have used boxer engines for decades in their motorcycles.

    Now the Toyota 86.

    We'll we see a comeback?
    Its low center of gravity makes it more suitable to be enjoyed in roadcar speeds as compared to aerodynamically loaded racecars.

    BTW
    Has there been a front-mid engine 2 seater sports car with a boxer or flat engine?

  2. #2
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    Until the Arna hasn't made a comeback the comeback for sporty boxer-engined cars will not be complete.
    Lack of charisma can be fatal.
    Visca Catalunya!

  3. #3
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    Seating for two and a boxer six ahead of the driver, but behind the front axle.
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

  4. #4
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    packaging seems problematic for these engines....
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  5. #5
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    Boxer not too difficult to package if designed around it. Murder if trying to fit it in to an already narrow chassis or FWD only.

    ALSO, the 911 engine has ALWAYS been in the perfect place for traction
    Lift of oversteer by numpties gives it a bad rep
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  6. #6
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    Well there are grumbles about a Porsche 960 which may have a flat engine. There are some who say there will be a flat 8.

    It's supposed to be their non hybrid supercar.

    2015 Porsche 960 supercar comes into focus - rumors

  7. #7
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    What's their practical benefit though over a traditional V or inline engine? I know they have low CofG, but I very much doubt in case of most road going cars they'll make that much of a difference unless you are designing everything with that in mind(ie, clean sheet car like the GT86). A STI doesn't really have anything over an Evo in any practical sense due to the engine layout. STI does benefit from the Boxer since its so short, their symmetrical layout don't hurt the weight distribution as badly as an Audi with an V8 engine dangling in front of the front axle.

    In more "normal" cars, they are more complex compare to your typical inline 4s since it does come with 2 heads, 2 sets of cams(4 cams total, assuming DOHC), likely 2 sets of primary exhaust manifold. With the increasing focus in thermal management for efficiency, they also have more potential heat losses and 2 sets of cooling passages to route. Can those factors be overcome? Sure, but I don't see other companies trying to go that route over whats in their cars now. Subaru would be the only one to try.

    I can see some packaging benefit actually with a Boxer though, with the current increasingly stringent requirement for pedestrian safety, hoodline(um, bonnetline?) of cars have been pushing higher and higher. Boxer sitting low tend to leave a lot of space between the engine an the hood(um, bonnet). So they don't have to be as high to give you good clearance. The Toyobaru has a pretty low hood for that sleek look that I think is hard to do without a Boxer these days.
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  8. #8
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    Then do 911s have cooling problems with the engine way in the back?

  9. #9
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    Not cooling problems, cooling management. The increasing trend nowadays is to run a lot of cooling passages in the head, and intergrate the exhaust manifold in the casting surrounded by the coolant to control the exhaust temp and combustion chamber temp to get optimum control of the combustion and maximize effectiveness of stuff like Turbo and even emission control equipment(combustion temperature affects the formation of particulate formation directly). Turbo charger also don't like too hot of an exhaust temp(but needs it to be hot as higher temp = more energy to recover), so there is a fine balance there. And the cooled manifold can more precisely control that. Boxers being quite open with 2 heads located at the opposite end of the engine with lots of open area does not make this kind of philosophy easy to implement. I'd lump Porsche with Subaru in that they are invested in the design so they'll do what they can to make it work. But no reason for others to switch...
    University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
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  10. #10
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    You get less "twist" in a boxer cylinder block which means it can be lighter for same power/compression.
    Like rotary, those who have the experience know how to get the best from them
    Good point on the valves esp now with variable lift/timing as it needs two control systems , the rest isn't that big a difference.
    Having all the extra valve weight low down is a BIG plus over the massive add-ons up high on 4s and 8s
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  11. #11
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    The Testarossa engine technically wasn't a boxer, but a 180 degree V12. The opposing pistons moved together rather than against each other. Also the engine was above the gearbox, so the CoG wasn't that great.
    Life's too short to drive bad cars.

  12. #12
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    in the 90s, a team converted a 911 gt3 race car to mid engine set up. the porsche team killed them off.
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    Just float your little mind around"
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnum9987 View Post
    in the 90s, a team converted a 911 gt3 race car to mid engine set up. the porsche team killed them off.
    how? by creating the 911 GT1?
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  14. #14
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    Came across a 2 year old Car&Driver test came out with the rear engine GT3 well ahead of the mid engine Cayman.
    The Mid- vs. Rear-Engine Debate: Porsche Cayman R vs. 911 GT3 - Feature - Car and Driver

    Personally, take a pinch of salt as immediately picked two "flaws" ... are these guys for real ??
    First, the "90 degree steering input" .... erm that COMPLETELY depends on the steering rack ratio - especially when it's variable controlled !
    Second, "tight corners to negate power/weight" .... erm, acceleration OUT of tight corners, not matter how short is ALWAYS going to be a winner for the one with higher power to weight. It reduces it for sure, but then measuring to 1/10th MPG and 1/100th g just makes a mockery of any rational objectivity
    Third, and at least this one they recognised but didnt' "factor", the drive in the rain/wet with one tyre on full treaded road and the other on Michelins more suited to trackdays THEN claiming "win" for 2mph difference.

    Reminds me why I don't generally like journalists approach to statistics are the way to judge but then don't level the playing field so they are meaningful Like NFL stats too, when some QBs would not face the best defences due to the league structures BUT then have cited great stats for completions etc etc.
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  15. #15
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    both the Cayman and the 911 have boxer engines IIRC....so to answer the question in post one. Not very likely, if some manufacturer wants to do it he will be countered by the most conservative people in the world, the car journalists, who will consider such a venture an attempt to mimick either Porsche or Subaru. Perhaps we should reinvent the 2CV of GS engine, after all a plain ordinary AMI 6 sold for 35000 Euro at an auction in Monaco last week...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

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