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  #46  
Old 03-28-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
But what is the point of the DRS system in qualifying? Especially because it can only be used on the straights in the race.
If you are suggesting disabling it for the qualifying, then I think you are right, really it was meant to be an overtaking aid....

The way I actually see it, I think the usage should be free all the time. But then it defies the point of it being an aid to over taking.....

Its cool looking though...
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  #47  
Old 03-28-2011, 02:29 PM
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DRS made the Q laps the most exciting stuff all weekend long, IMO. Keep it.

All in all, the DRS is just a gimmick. How does Red Bull get away with its rubber bending front wing?
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  #48  
Old 03-28-2011, 02:42 PM
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Fronts historically do most of the braking.
LOTS more rubber on the rears and if you can make it provide more braking via engine you do.
BIGGEST problem with brakes is the heat dissipation.
With KERS you reduce that and thus increase the limits.
I surmise that when we get a chance to see data logging that the reason the cars are faster again this year will be the shorter braking ?
Hadn't really thought about it till Brundles comment and the more I do the more convinced I am that a clever KERS is as much about capturing retardation energy than it is about storing and reapplying it.
Of course, is all conjecture
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:52 PM
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KERS only acts on the rear axle, so the fronts are still all brakes. Brundle mentioned that some drivers have to move brake bias as much as 5% forwards to counter the drag from the KERS.

DRS in quali sounds ok (I didn't watch it) as maybe it makes it easier to pass a person on a hot lap and gives more opportunity for some banzai action, but obviously the drivers have to be aware of the dangers of much lower rear downforce. Not sure where I sit on that yet.
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  #50  
Old 03-28-2011, 03:55 PM
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As you say Pimento, the rears are still braking, and I'd missed the comment about how much they adjusted the bias.
Most brakign will always be on the front otherwise you get a car that swaps ends in the braking zone
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  #51  
Old 03-28-2011, 07:33 PM
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Physics dictate the front will most of the braking, when you have a car capable of braking @ 5G @ 200mph, you are going to get a tremendous amount of weight transfer...

Regardless of the KERS any deceleration outside of aero drag is done through the tire contact patches. Your engine braking/KERS recharging is still a drag on the contact patch. If the KERS motor drag on the engine too much it can still stall the car, and you'll have a locked rear axle. They are still traction limited whether they use KERS to brake, or just the regular brake.

Where it does affect brake(aside from the brake bias issue, which really is an issue of regulation with the limiting storage capacity), is that maybe with KERS they can reduce the size of the braking system. Note that in the Porsche GT3 Hybrid's case, the car can run the "sprint" brake package for endurance races as the hybrid system can recapture that brake energy that otherwise just gone into heat...
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  #52  
Old 03-28-2011, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
Physics dictate the front will most of the braking, when you have a car capable of braking @ 5G @ 200mph, you are going to get a tremendous amount of weight transfer...

Regardless of the KERS any deceleration outside of aero drag is done through the tire contact patches. Your engine braking/KERS recharging is still a drag on the contact patch. If the KERS motor drag on the engine too much it can still stall the car, and you'll have a locked rear axle. They are still traction limited whether they use KERS to brake, or just the regular brake.

Where it does affect brake(aside from the brake bias issue, which really is an issue of regulation with the limiting storage capacity), is that maybe with KERS they can reduce the size of the braking system. Note that in the Porsche GT3 Hybrid's case, the car can run the "sprint" brake package for endurance races as the hybrid system can recapture that brake energy that otherwise just gone into heat...
That's basically my thought, the GT3 Hybrid is a good point in case.
You need less brakes at the rear than without the KERS, given you'd have reached the maximum braking performance from the rear axle anyway. It's surely trickier to handle.
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  #53  
Old 03-28-2011, 11:50 PM
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RM the more I think about it the more I realise how smart an engineer coudl be in the deployment of KERS and am sure they'll have already thought of it ....

ABS is banned in F1.
BUT KERS uses an electric motor to convert physical force into electrical energy.
Now, dependant on the field strength - under control of the eletronic motor management circuitry - an electric generator can have a variable physical load.
SO ... you can use the KERS as an effective ABS on the rears
By allowing it to modulate the additional braking effort on top of the rear brakes themself.
Now THAT would be a smart move Chapman would be proud of !!
( downside is that the KERS generator then becomes a massive heat source )

WOnder how long till the FIA ban it

the GT3 KERS is a physical storage system not a battery and would pose additional problems trying to be that smart and yes less stress on rear brakes was always sold as an "advantage" of KERS. Personally as a driver I'd still want big assed brakes for when KERS fails or is fully loaded
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Old 03-29-2011, 12:13 AM
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AFAIK, aka, from what I've read during my thesis, those generators work in constant conditions. The ABS idea is good, but could potentially spoil the efficiency and generate even more heat. I guess there is enough energy at stake to not car about efficiency, not so sure about heat though.
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  #55  
Old 03-29-2011, 03:57 AM
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yeah the standard design will go for constant. I was tryign to imagine if RBR are beign lateral again and using a motor to retard and give braking control. BUT it generates a LOT of current to be dissipated and if the KERS battery is full then it's all heat. Mind you, lateral thinking, bit flat surface on the bottom could be an effective heat radiator

But, no spent a wee bit of time on it and the VERY short duration peak energy is massive and electronic switching could be difficult. Wonder about controlling the engagement clutch though. Still trying to work out a way to cheat the rules
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  #56  
Old 03-29-2011, 05:43 AM
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Yes, a KERS-backed ABS or even, torque vectoring(controlling the amount of "regen braking" between the wheels of an axle) would be interesting. In GT3 Hybrid's case they already do that on deployment.....

I am not sure its legal in that if the rules already wrote it out, but I've been thinking about something like that since the idea of regen and individual wheel motor has been floated...

In F1's case I don't know if its doable in terms of torque vectoring since they are using a electric motor at the flywheel/transmission input(as opposed to 2 motors in Porsche's case), but they do have electronically controlled diff.
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2011, 06:04 AM
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oh yes, RM, liking that angle ( pun intended )

Yes all F1 KERS is the engine side of the diff, so no hope of smart braking to aid cornering.

But, hadn't thought of that aspect of advantage of motor-per-wheel electric.
Brake the inside more to setup for corner and control weight transfer
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  #58  
Old 03-29-2011, 09:23 PM
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trouble with the kers is the brake balance upset

because the fronts require more pressure to balance out, your wearing the fronts as well as rears under hard braking more than non-kers cars (nonkers ? lol). so more wear on the discs & front tyres, as well as incresed wear on the rears

we all know that discs can be marginal on F1 cars, & their was plenty of front lock-ups during the melbourne race

Red Bull are smart with the start line "only" system (tho i doubt its limited to just then)
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  #59  
Old 03-29-2011, 09:35 PM
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I don't know that the fronts are doing any more braking, just that the rears are doing less due to the KERS taking some of the load - in effect the brake force on the tyres is the same either way. The front brakes are already at maximum stoppage KERS or not, and there's no extra weight to pull up because afaik the cars are still at minimum weight with the systems in place. Basically the balance is 5% forwards but less total brake pressure, the effect being that front braking is the same but rear braking is reduced.
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  #60  
Old 03-29-2011, 09:52 PM
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To my understanding the braking issues included the transition to less rear brake usage when the KERS unit was full, leading to front lock ups, as balance changed.
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