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  #16  
Old 03-26-2013, 09:48 AM
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I think PSA has other problem more than racing against itself...
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  #17  
Old 03-26-2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
I disagree on one part only. The Twingo RS is a superb performance car.
It's a fine car, not a Corsa Nurbugring tho nor a Suzuki Swift

However, the GORDINI RS is in Renaults own words
Quote:
Also available with the Gordini label . Twingo Gordini R.S. boasts immediately recognizable styling, with 17-inch diamond effect black wheels, leather upholstery and climate control. Inimitably sporty and chic with its two stripes, Twingo Gordini R.S. is now available with a new grey interior ambience, alongside the existing blue, for all exterior body colours: Malta Blue, Glacier White, Pearlescent Black or Vif Red. New Twingo Gordini R.S. adds a touch of sophistication to the appeal of Renault Sport.
Note, Gordini, famous for engine tuning and chassis handling are now demoted to being a "label" for "chic" looks
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Last edited by Matra et Alpine; 03-26-2013 at 04:29 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-27-2013, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
It's a fine car, not a Corsa Nurbugring tho nor a Suzuki Swift
Haven't driven the Opel or the Suzuki, but with the Cup chassis the Twingo is as good as a Mk1 Cooper S BMW, and that's about the best front wheel drive carI've ever driven.

It was also a bargain. I was offered one for 14.900€ (£12,630) but in the end decided I preferred rear wheel drive (And thank god I did, I think that the Renault would've been even worse on day to day basis than the Mazda).
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Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
However, the GORDINI RS is in Renaults own words

Note, Gordini, famous for engine tuning and chassis handling are now demoted to being a "label" for "chic" looks
Agree.

I think what they wanted to do is pull an Abarth. The problem is that, unlike Fiat, Renault already offered superb high performance models, so Gordinis were limited to aesthetic modifications, ruining everything in the process.

I'd also add that Abarth survives alone on the cuteness of the 500. The Abarth 500 is quite a bad car and Abarth Puntos are hardly seen at all...
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  #19  
Old 03-27-2013, 09:17 AM
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Even in standard trim the Swift is a fast car on the 'Ring. With simple suspension mods MUCH better than the Clio F1 R27 available !! I was surprised by the quality of the chassis in the Swift - I went in biased We had a press release Corsa 'Ring to Doune sprint where the journo was given permission to "compete". He didn't hang about !!

Havne't had chance to push a Twingo but it wasn't a happy ride on bumpy roads at "normal" speeds
So I think it would very much depend on the intended use - as it always does
Yeah I was disappointed at what "Abarth" added to the 500 when my daughter was buying the cinque'. The salesman was noob to and couldn't understand why I was asking if there was an option to latch the boot open by a few inches
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  #20  
Old 03-27-2013, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
Even in standard trim the Swift is a fast car on the 'Ring. With simple suspension mods MUCH better than the Clio F1 R27 available !! I was surprised by the quality of the chassis in the Swift - I went in biased We had a press release Corsa 'Ring to Doune sprint where the journo was given permission to "compete". He didn't hang about !!

Havne't had chance to push a Twingo but it wasn't a happy ride on bumpy roads at "normal" speeds
So I think it would very much depend on the intended use - as it always does
Yeah I was disappointed at what "Abarth" added to the 500 when my daughter was buying the cinque'. The salesman was noob to and couldn't understand why I was asking if there was an option to latch the boot open by a few inches
You see, I'm not interested in outright speed. I want a car that communicates with me and that I can have fun with. The last tenth of a second is irrelevant to me.

I always remember when I drove an XF 4.2 and subsequently an A6 3.2 Quattro. The Audi was as fast (possibly faster, even with a 45bhp power deficit) as the big Jag, but the big Jag was the driver's car. It asked to be driven, not just a point-and-shoot game as was the Audi. I'm looking for "Jaguars" in my cars.

That's why I found the Twingo satisfying. Fine steering, agile, nimble, and with a collaborative rear axle (altough I admit it must not be the most comfortable car in the world...). Old-school revvy normally aspirated engine and a fine gearbox. The Abarth was none of that and it had a stupid bouncy ride.

Swift looks interesting, but Corsa 'Ring far too expensive and radical for me.
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  #21  
Old 03-27-2013, 09:58 AM
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With you on the feedback that makes a great car.

Still with the RX-8 for that reason Still not found anything as much connection without spending lots .... and that definately did NOT include an Evora which is disappointing from Lotus

I went into a Swift expecting FWD junk and was taken aback. MUCH better than a Mini imho and cheaper
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  #22  
Old 03-27-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
Abarth Puntos are hardly seen at all...
Since launch of the Abarth Punto Evo in 2010 I saw exactly two, from which one was on a carshow. I can hardly believe they sold more, they are extremely rare on the road. I like it and end of 2011 I even considered buying it, but the car was too new and the prices were ridicilous (they still are), well above 20K in Euro's. Would you opt for the Essesse kit (boost to 180 hp, lowered shocks and better brakes) via the official Abarth dealer you have to bring another 3K.

What also was a letdown is that they only sell it via the Abarth network which is even more limited then finding a refridgerator in the midst of the desert. Even for 'everything besides regular maintenance' I would have to drive 1,5 hours to nearest service point.

When I think of it, I am glad I did not buy it. Not for the price or servicing, but more of the image these cars bring. Basically hot hatches look just like their modest counterparts with added spoilers and big wheels but they bring a certain 'boy racer' image. I guess I grow old as I believe my 147 is a much more 'mature' and representative car, also when visiting customers for work etcetera.

Third point, do I need the surplus of power which is in hot hatches? Well, 150 hp is not too much I figured and nothing special in daily traffic with fat diesels in lease cars. So next car with more power would definitely be nice. On the other hand I seldom exceed 140 km/h. In daily traffic to work it is not even possible to achieve that. I have a calm driving style, sometimes even a bit too cautious. Current car has all the comfort also when I do not feel like having my teeth rambled out when driving on roads without good paving.

Last edited by Man of Steel; 03-27-2013 at 11:04 AM.
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  #23  
Old 03-27-2013, 04:40 PM
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Abarth also has a no-haggling policy, so the cars are sold on list prices, no discounts at all. They can be had without decals and everything, but that's almost the only point of Abarths so if you go second hand they'll all have the decals and graphics in the bodywork...

Regarding power, it is (almost) never excessive. Even if you don't drive very fast having power to get you out trouble if you need so (like a misjudged overtaking) is always reassuring. These days even city cars can hit 160km/h easily.

As for comfort I've also lately moved it up my list of wanted attributes. I think one of the problems is that many people (including those who run car makers) think that to have a good handling you must also have a preposterously stiff suspension and that said silly suspension setting make the car sporty. I say this is all a load of rubbish; a suspension that is too hard ruins everything, including handling and there are cars with superb ride comfort that also handle very well.
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  #24  
Old 03-27-2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
Haven't driven the Opel or the Suzuki, but with the Cup chassis the Twingo is as good as a Mk1 Cooper S BMW, and that's about the best front wheel drive carI've ever driven.
The latest Fifth Gear has a Swift/Twingo head to head, they were pretty closely matched. Swift wasn't as sharp to drive, but pulled harder. Seemed like better rubber would pretty much bring it up to par on the handling stakes, and maybe some suspension tweaks.
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  #25  
Old 03-27-2013, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
As for comfort I've also lately moved it up my list of wanted attributes. I think one of the problems is that many people (including those who run car makers) think that to have a good handling you must also have a preposterously stiff suspension and that said silly suspension setting make the car sporty. I say this is all a load of rubbish; a suspension that is too hard ruins everything, including handling and there are cars with superb ride comfort that also handle very well.
I sort of judge cars on a spectrum...the tradeoff of ride vs. handling. I myself prefer a good ride over handling any day, but as long as there is some kind of payoff for a stiffer ride I can at least respect that.
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  #26  
Old 03-28-2013, 12:20 AM
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I sort of judge cars on a spectrum...the tradeoff of ride vs. handling. I myself prefer a good ride over handling any day, but as long as there is some kind of payoff for a stiffer ride I can at least respect that.
I still put handling above, but I reckon that comfort has moved up to second probably. It also depends on the type of car and the use you are going to give it; for instance I tolerated the bed-of-nails-like ride in the Mini because in the mountains it was pretty much unbeatable and everything was set in that way, but the ride in the new A-Class or DS4 is simply unacceptable because they are not built to play with the laws of physics.

I also thing that putting a needlessly stiff suspension and big tyres does not make up for a badly designed chassis and as I said does not make a car sporty (A-Class, classic case in point) even if many manufacturers (and people) think so. I prefer a well designed chassis and then suspension settings that achieve a good compromise between ride and handling.
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  #27  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:04 AM
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Launched into one of the most boring classes ever in racing.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2013, 08:21 AM
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Launched into one of the most boring classes ever in racing.
LMP2 is pretty hotly contested in EU....there are genuine OEM interest in the class with multiple engine suppliers and well funded privateers...it just never did so well in US.
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  #29  
Old 03-30-2013, 05:22 AM
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LMP2 is pretty hotly contested in EU....there are genuine OEM interest in the class with multiple engine suppliers and well funded privateers...it just never did so well in US.

You never see people post vids of P2 dog fights....that's what I'm getting at, the racing never seems to excite.
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  #30  
Old 03-30-2013, 06:22 AM
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Sadly that's usually because media is so focussed on the big spend, big image teams

Exception at Le Mans was Pescarolo teams over the years. The French love of him meant his cars got reasonable coverage no matter how bad
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