Next recall

[SGG]

Toyota has yet another recall at hand:270 000 vehicles,mostly Lexus and Crown sedan,equipped with 3.6 and 4.6 litre engines.
The motor on these models can mechanically fail.
I am not impressed.

[LeonOfTheDead]

To be precise, the valve springs can fail, which is slightly different.

[SGG]

To be precise, the valve springs can fail, which is slightly different.

How is that different?The effect is the same:your valves kiss the pistons and the´s the end of it...any more excuses for a miserable quality of a so called high quality manufactor?
Valve springs!
Haven´t heard a recall about simple valve springs ever!

[LeonOfTheDead]

How is that different?The effect is the same:your valves kiss the pistons and the´s the end of it...any more excuses for a miserable quality of a so called high quality manufactor?
Valve springs!
Haven´t heard a recall about simple valve springs ever!

It is different as a failing engine seems like a major design flaw, a failing spring is much less "big news" even if the result is the same. Goes to show how much it is important to trow s*** at Toyota rather than to explain or elaborate what's going on.

3 years ago Fiat had a similar problem and they blamed the supplier, in 2003 (iirc) it was BMW and they didn't even recall the cars affected (and they were quite a lot), and so on with many other even worse or silly little failures.
History is full of recalls, and you know that when you produce far more cars than others do, you're also going to recall more of them.

I'd like a proper stat about how many Toyota are recalled every 1.000 cars produced, and a similar data from other automakers, to put things into the right prospective.

Surely Toyota isn't doing good at all at the moment, but at a non-paying-attention eye it would look like they are the only one, as people seem to care only about Toyota's as if they were bound to be perfect.

[SGG]

THEY REGARD THEMSELFS AS PERFECT!
Just watch the stupid commercial for their Tundra..what a gong show.
And now?simple parts fail and yes,as you should now,valve spring failure causes engine damage.If you had ever seen a valve,sticking in a piston,you would now what I mean.
Second:if FIAT brakes down..who cares?F=fix I=it A=again T=Tony...it´s all about reputation.I have no sympathy at all for Toyota and you should stop sucking their dicks as well.

[SGG]

If they would have problems with the main crank bearings,would your reply be:it´s just the bearings,nothing major...actually just the top layer of bearing material that gets eaten away...
what silly rhetoric.Why don´t you apply for a job with them?
Oh,problems to relocate to Tokyo?Afraid of living in a box?Wake up!

[LeonOfTheDead]

I'm afraid I'm more familiar with valve springs than you, but anyway.

As you are underlining, you don't like Toyota, and that was what I was trying to say.
Saying "the engine fails" is different from saying "the spring fails", because when your going to read them, even knowing the effect of a valve failing are quite relevent, the first sounds like the complete design is worthless, as if it was going to be trashed for good.
On the other hand even if a valve left open will need to you to open the head, change it, and possibly the piston with it, it isn't a terminal damage, or even a completely wrong design. Given we don't even know what's wrong with those springs, I wouldn't be so alarmist.

Since there is a voluntary recall, and no one complained about that not even in small numbers as far as I know, it appears that those springs can indeed fail, but as of now everything worked fine. Which doesn't mean the problem is less important, but it shows you that Toyota do cares at least this much, especially after what happened recently.
What I'm considering here is that either Toyota is being overly protective towards these customers (which is good), or that they are now recalling all parts they knew they could fail, but as of yesterday they were fine with that. Which is good too.

Now, you may have little knowledge about Fiats, which is after all the problem we are supposedly talking about in the Alfa Romeo thread. Indeed while you laugh on Fiat's engines you are also praising Alfa's, which are incidentally the same engines. It's all about reputation, after all, or knowledge.
Let alone the fact I can introduce you many owners of everlasting Fiats (Fiats as in Alfa Romeos too), which yes, weren't perfect vehicles, but either were many other cars they bought over the years. The first series of the latest PSA vans were plagued by all sorts of electronic problems Do they have a reputation for that? I don't know honestly, as an ex owner I'd say yes, but since it isn't as funny to create an anagram for Citroen or Peugeot, I guess no one would bother, especially over there.

Then what about BMW? Nothing to say about that?
I'm pretty sure other major automakers had many problems with valve springs too.

And no, as of now I've never seen the Tundra commercial because it's a pretty much irrelevant car for this side of the Atlantic, and Toyotas sold over here are quite reliable. Yes, the accelerator pedal thing happened over here too, no, it wasn't as bad or so much in your face as in north America. Possibly because there weren't two mostly Government owned automakers to start again.

I'm going to watch that commercial now anyway, but I do saw that for the F150, which talking about self bragging, was quite indicative too. As with basically every other commercial in the world, I think I never saw one saying "our products can fail".

[LeonOfTheDead]

Some new information, sort of: UPDATED: What's really going on with Toyota's faulty valve springs [w/ video] — Autoblog

And yes, I watched a compilation of all Tundra's commercial, and now I'm just bored to death.

[SGG]

You don´t know that,but I learned my trade at FIAT,surprise!
I worked on Bravo/Bravas,Stilo,Punto Multipla,Seicento and so on.I owned a Tipo and a Doblo.
Do I know about FIAT-Quality?YES,I replaced many cylinder head gaskets on FIRE-engines and I did lot of warranty work as well.We had lots of problems with electronic components (Magneti Marelli injection systems) and quite a lot of customer complaints regarding noisy parts (shocks!).
Does Alfa has a better quality?YES,far less complaints.Did FIAT is able to produce good engines?YES,surprise!
Not even they have the problem of manufacturing basic motor components..that´s the ridiculous part of the story.
How can you say that you know more about valve springs than I do?If you know so much about them,how can you say that it´s not so bad?Even considered the valves don´t fall out off the head,they still kiss the pistons and at least bend the valves,causing motor damage.
Have you ever seen valve damage?A bend valve has to be replaced it can have further consequences regarding the valve stems.If they have been damaged,the sell you a new head.
They say that the problem is known for years...how many customer had to pay for their repair?Would you pay for it,if it happens to you?
Ah,as long as it happens to others,it´s OK and absolute justifiable

[LeonOfTheDead]

You don´t know that,but I learned my trade at FIAT,surprise!
I worked on Bravo/Bravas,Stilo,Punto Multipla,Seicento and so on.I owned a Tipo and a Doblo.
Do I know about FIAT-Quality?YES,I replaced many cylinder head gaskets on FIRE-engines and I did lot of warranty work as well.We had lots of problems with electronic components (Magneti Marelli injection systems) and quite a lot of customer complaints regarding noisy parts (shocks!).
Does Alfa has a better quality?YES,far less complaints.Did FIAT is able to produce good engines?YES,surprise!
Not even they have the problem of manufacturing basic motor components..that´s the ridiculous part of the story.
How can you say that you know more about valve springs than I do?If you know so much about them,how can you say that it´s not so bad?Even considered the valves don´t fall out off the head,they still kiss the pistons and at least bend the valves,causing motor damage.
Have you ever seen valve damage?A bend valve has to be replaced it can have further consequences regarding the valve stems.If they have been damaged,the sell you a new head.
They say that the problem is known for years...how many customer had to pay for their repair?Would you pay for it,if it happens to you?
Ah,as long as it happens to others,it´s OK and absolute justifiable

Didn't say it isn't bad, I said that you, as many others, make it sounds worse when it comes to Toyota. I've already wrote I think at least twice that the result is that the engine will fail, but that's not the same as saying the engine is all wrong which is the first thing that comes to mind when one read "the engine can fail", which is far too generic, since you say you know about engines.

I know about valve springs because one of the project I did at university was designing a cam, and that involved dimensioning the spring too. The same happened in another project, but from a tensional point of view.
Which is not bragging but a way to say that even a simple component requires a lot of work to get it right, which also means there is a lot that can go wrong.

How many customers had to pay for that? So far it appears no one. Some cases about damaged engines are coming to the surface, but it isn't stated who payed the bill. Of course it isn't nice when that's your car, but I don't remember you or many other attacking with the same emphasis other automakers which did faced recalls recently. Which is my only point here.

Besides, the FIRE engine has quite a good history when it comes to reliability.
We have a Stilo in the family, and despite being noisy which is indeed annoying, the only problems it has are that you need to change a front light more often that what you'd like (as in many other recent cars, but it seems we solved that with a different brand of lights), and the ECU controlling the airbag is sending signals of anomalies every now and then, but the airbag is fine which is the finnier part. Except that, the car works just fine, and for the price we paid, it's doing grate considering it is 9 years old or so.
Still I'm a bit unsure how is that you worked on Fiat cars without knowing they are seriously related with Alfa Romeo's, even assuming there are less diesel engined cars over there. Regarding Alfa's better quality, it could be a very weak point until recent cars, which as far as I know are not available over there. Talking as an ex owner.
The problems suffered by many Fiats were also felt on the 155, the 145/146 and even the 166 had quite some issues. The 164 was excellent but so was also the first gen Croma.

Thinking about it, your flag says Canada, but the cars you're talking about aren't present there afaik. Care to elaborate on that?

Eventually, I'm not denying Toyota has problem, I'm arguing why you and others only care to underline their recalls and not those from other automakers. Toyota's haters do not do any better to other companies either.

You're completely entitled of your opinion obviously, even more if you'd car to elaborate a bit more on the subjects you post about so to be also more informative on your own point of view.

[SGG]

I was born and raised in Germany,simple as that.
The airbag problems on you Stilo are caused by the plugs under the seat,the contact tongues move within the plug housing which causes varying resistance,causing the light to come on.
I don´t know why Alfas are of a better quality,I never worked too much on the older ones (everything from mid-nineties on) but 156 and co. are very good cars (I had one,where we had to reseal the transmission,(yeah right,the green sealant...)and every single bolt I took out,had a f* ed thread,no clue how that ever happened...
Again,regarding the valve springs:This is serious!You shouldn´t try to talk it down.Engine damage is engine damage and the costs for a person to get that fixed are very high.Consider labour and part costs,where would you end up?Well,at the mildest case,you would let easily 3000€,in the worst case,it´s a new motor.Nice if Toyota now admits its fault....again,the link said years!
Good if you learned about valve springs,bad that you don´t consider that they are very mass-production parts,manufactured to specific standards and usually DON`T FAIL!
How many valve springs are working in motors all over the world right now?And still,no other manufacturer managed to have problems like that...it´s just a matter of quality.
I worked at a GM dealership (and I would still do so if it wouldn´t be for the flat rate system)and have never encountered problems with something simple as that ever.

[SGG]

Regardin the FIRE engines:yep,they are reliable,specially when taken into account the rpm nessacary to make them go.Still,head gaskets are the Achilles´heel of this motor.Everything between 1000km and 100 000 km is possible.My Doblo blew his at expected 65000km,the lowest milage ever was 5km.It was the new style,made of metal,that failed after it was careless installed in the factory (matted surface scratched).
We had engine damadge,caused by overheating due to blown headgaskets.In wintertime,the problem isn´t that bad,the first thing you loose,is your heat caused by airbubble build up in the heatercore.
You don´t want to argue about FIAT with me,don´t you?

[LeonOfTheDead]

I was born and raised in Germany,simple as that.
The airbag problems on you Stilo are caused by the plugs under the seat,the contact tongues move within the plug housing which causes varying resistance,causing the light to come on.
I don´t know why Alfas are of a better quality,I never worked too much on the older ones (everything from mid-nineties on) but 156 and co. are very good cars (I had one,where we had to reseal the transmission,(yeah right,the green sealant...)and every single bolt I took out,had a f* ed thread,no clue how that ever happened...
Again,regarding the valve springs:This is serious!You shouldn´t try to talk it down.Engine damage is engine damage and the costs for a person to get that fixed are very high.Consider labour and part costs,where would you end up?Well,at the mildest case,you would let easily 3000€,in the worst case,it´s a new motor.Nice if Toyota now admits its fault....again,the link said years!
Good if you learned about valve springs,bad that you don´t consider that they are very mass-production parts,manufactured to specific standards and usually DON`T FAIL!
How many valve springs are working in motors all over the world right now?And still,no other manufacturer managed to have problems like that...it´s just a matter of quality.
I worked at a GM dealership (and I would still do so if it wouldn´t be for the flat rate system)and have never encountered problems with something simple as that ever.

As I said earlier others had similar problems.
I'm not talking it down, I'm talking down the way people attack Toyota because it's the cool thing to do now. I don't even know how many other times I have to write it. Also, now one said those money for the repairs where so far charged n the owners, so just let's stop assuming for a second.

We had a 156 too, and yes it was good mechanically, electronically there wasn't much that could fail.
Regarding my Stilo, it isn't the plug under the seat, already checked that and changed, didn't work and the problem rely in a conflict between ECUs, it turned out.

Using autoblog.com just to be quicker, selecting only recalls issued from Jan 2010, and not including Toyota's just because those we all know about, recent recalls from other automakers (considered as groups) no one bothered to talk about:

- BMW (bikes) brake pipes, 15.000 units: BMW recalls over 15,000 motorcycles — Autoblog
- Mazda, oil hose, 90.000, investigating an a possible recall after having informed the authorities: Euro/Asian Mazda3 oil hose recall pending? — Autoblog
- Suzuki (rebadged Nissan pickup), suspension problem influencing the wheel alignment, only 600 units: Suzuki recalls 2010 Equator pickups over suspension concern — Autoblog
- Acura, powersteering hose wearing, 167.000 units: Honda recalling 167,000 Acura TSX sedans — Autoblog
- Mitsubishi, corrosion with possible flammable fluids leak, 60.000 units: Honda recalling 167,000 Acura TSX sedans — Autoblog
- Honda, defective master switch with fire risk, 646.000 cars: Honda recalls 646k Fits around the world — Autoblog
- Acura, possible airbag unproperly deployment, a few hundreds (2.000 possibly affected units sold at that moment) 2010 Acura ZDX recalled for airbag issues — Autoblog
- BMW, possible fire risk caused by friction, all 1 Series models assembled from Jan to May 2010: Report: BMW 1 Series sales halted pending recall for fire risk — Autoblog
- Chrysler, ignition problem, 40.000 units: Chrysler recalling 40,000 vehicles for ignition problem — Autoblog
- GM, serious fire risk with owners asked to not use the car until it's fixed, 5.000 units: GM recalls 5,000 vans with serious fire risk, tells owners to park outside, away from everything — Autoblog
- Honda, airbag inflator issue, 380.000 on top of 440.000 recalled the year before for the same reason: Honda extends airbag shrapnel recall to 378,758 U.S vehicles — Autoblog
- Honda, electronic stability program issues, 410.000 units: http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/16/h...brake-problem/
- Chrysler, brake issue, 27.000 units: Recall issued for potential brake failure on 2010 Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep vehicles — Autoblog
- Honda, improper assembly, 7.600 units: Recall issued for potential brake failure on 2010 Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep vehicles — Autoblog
- Nissan, brake pedal pin and fuel gauge problems, 540.000 units: Recall issued for potential brake failure on 2010 Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep vehicles — Autoblog
- Mazda, wiring harness fault, 25.000 units: 25,000+ 2010 Mazda3s recalled over potential wiring harness fault — Autoblog
- Lamborghini, fire risk, 430 units: Lamborghini recalling 2007-2008 Murciélago models over possible fire risk — Autoblog
- Mazda, faulty seats heaters, all 2010 CX-9 units: Lamborghini recalling 2007-2008 Murciélago models over possible fire risk — Autoblog
- (This went under the radar a bit) Lexus, slow to return steering wheel, 11.500 units: Report: Lexus preparing to recall 11,500 LS models globally over slow-to-return steering — Autoblog
- Chrysler, airbag issues, 312.000 units: Chrysler recalls 312,000 2005-2006 minivans over airbag issue *UPDATE — Autoblog
- GM, pre.ignition with less than 91 octane fuel, 600 units: GM recalling select 2010 Cadillac SRX crossovers over engine failure fears — Autoblog
- GM, windshield washer system potentially causes fire, 1.500.000 units: windshield washer system that gets so hot it could potentially cause a fire
- Infiniti, airbag issues, 134.000 units:Infiniti recalls 134,000 G35 coupes and sedans due to airbag issue — Autoblog
And probably much more.

So, as it appears there was plenty to talk about, but Toyota is probably a much easier target now. That's all I'm saying.

Funny link: 390 million vehicles recalled since 1966... and other fun recall facts — Autoblog
Relatively useful link: Edmunds puts Toyota recall into marketplace percentage context — Autoblog

[SGG]

No one else,in the whole Automotive industry is similar arrogant than Toyota!Nobody claims to that good and yet fail as if not even worst than the rest of the industry.

[kingofthering]

THEY REGARD THEMSELFS AS PERFECT!
Just watch the stupid commercial for their Tundra..what a gong show.
And now?simple parts fail and yes,as you should now,valve spring failure causes engine damage.If you had ever seen a valve,sticking in a piston,you would now what I mean.

Wait, so you're telling me that there are car companies who make commercials that say: "Yes, our products aren't the greatest; they suck compared to competitor A"?