2011 Australian Grand Prix (March 25 - 27)

[pimento]

There were some passes made with the rear wing open.. I'd say it's pretty likely that at least some of them wouldn't have happened without the wing, but I'm not sure about all the rules around them. Seems overly complicated for no particular reason. Having more pit stops for tyres just makes me wish that refuelling was still allowed though.. I think I prefer the longer lasting tyres with the ? around refuelling stops rather than just 'oooh, how long with the tyres last?' I liked the strategising, though it would have meant that thingumy wouldn't have surprised everyone by only needing one tyre stop.

[LeonOfTheDead]

For those of us who didn't get to see the race...was the passing improved by the new gizmos...or is the racing the same?

Something changes, not much for this specific race, but I guess they also need to get used to it.

I've read that RBR didn't run the KERS because heating concerns. Wonder where they will be once they got it right in Malaysia (as they said they would).

[Wouter Melissen]

I think it merely devalues overtaking.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I think it merely devalues overtaking.

Yep, that's the main problem.
Yesterday I've managed to watch a god 40 minutes of the SCCA World Challenge (poor commentary, I have to say), and I was more intrigued than with 30 minutes of F1.
Then again I can watch as much action from any endurance race as my body allows me.

[Dino Scuderia]

Yesterday I've managed to watch a god 40 minutes of the SCCA World Challenge (poor commentary, I have to say), and I was more intrigued than with 30 minutes of F1.

Two of the drivers I have raced against(been beaten by) in iRacing's simulation.

Mike Skeen who drove the Vette and got podium finish, and Eric Foss who won in the Mustang. Two drivers who's skills translate from real to sim and back again.

[pimento]

I think it merely devalues overtaking.

Not sure, you still have to have the better car and a strong push out of the corner to actually make the pass. Maybe on a track with a longer pit straight it might devalue it or lead to passes might shouldn't happen but I think in this case it was ok. Better than the processional alternative IMO.

[RacingManiac]

I think it merely devalues overtaking.

As far as the Aussie race goes I don't think so. As you can see with Button it was still plenty hard to overtake.....I think if the pass-ee has KERS left, the advantage was very much nulled. As you can see with Button and Massa, as soon as Button got on the DRS Massa used KERS and was actually pulling on Button...

Tracks with longer straight might be a different story...

Fascinating looking at the driver using the wing in qualifying, as once you open its usage up they were using it where ever they can. Even for just a fraction of a sec...

[Wouter Melissen]

I really don't see the use of DRS in qualifying. It only makes it more dangerous for the drivers. Sutil could have been involved in a major crash that perhaps would not have hurt but surely would have suspended qualifying for quite some time.

[Matra et Alpine]

BBC talked of the RBR KERS and the rumour that it's not a full KERS as they've decided the weight of the energy recovery is a drawback. BUT that they have a smaller store for launch. Didn't buy in to it as surely the battery is the worst and the motor IS the generator. But was interesting ... and woudl be typical RBR to think of a lateral solution.

Also Brundle noted that KERS puts much larger forces through the rears and the tyres dont get a change to "relax" and that is accelerating the wear beyond what was thought. Could see that as a factor.

One I wondered about re the wear is this is the first time the tyres are being used "In anger" in a race with the rear wing. IF drivers are opening the flap earlier they may well be getting tyre spin as the traction lowers.

I dont like "adaptable cars" as it removes many compromises "old school" drivers develop into the chassis setup. Thus making it easier on them.

[LeonOfTheDead]

BBC talked of the RBR KERS and the rumour that it's not a full KERS as they've decided the weight of the energy recovery is a drawback. BUT that they have a smaller store for launch. Didn't buy in to it as surely the battery is the worst and the motor IS the generator. But was interesting ... and woudl be typical RBR to think of a lateral solution.

Also Brundle noted that KERS puts much larger forces through the rears and the tyres dont get a change to "relax" and that is accelerating the wear beyond what was thought. Could see that as a factor.

One I wondered about re the wear is this is the first time the tyres are being used "In anger" in a race with the rear wing. IF drivers are opening the flap earlier they may well be getting tyre spin as the traction lowers.

I dont like "adaptable cars" as it removes many compromises "old school" drivers develop into the chassis setup. Thus making it easier on them.

McLaren and Ferrari may have an advantage on the tires wear having already run the KERS, even if with different cars and tires. Hamilton didn't ruin the tires as usual too.
Then again I don't think KERS is deteriorating the tires more than expected, Pirelli was asked for "funnier" tires and they delivered them in the first place, since they were testing with a KERS-less 2009 Toyota. Perez still managed to cover more than half the distance on the soft tires.

Regarding what Brundle said, the car, afaik, weights the same with or without the KERS, it's only a matter of where you positioned the ballast without the system. First of all, that may screw RBR's balance once they got it on the car.
Secondly, the different effects of the KERS on the tires during cornering is only given by its position VS the position of ballast. Considering only one axle, it would translate on the different height of CG, which I'm not sure if it's going to change that much.

Last but not least, KERS isn't always used on the straights, so the tires do get some rest even assuming they are more stressed during corners.

I just think that many teams still need to come to grasp with the new tires in race condition, and Perez just got it right.

[RacingManiac]

I really don't see the use of DRS in qualifying. It only makes it more dangerous for the drivers. Sutil could have been involved in a major crash that perhaps would not have hurt but surely would have suspended qualifying for quite some time.

Thats arguable....the same always held true for other adjustment mechanism, or simply, just the basic controls of the F1 cars. If a driver mis-adjusted his brake bias he could well swap ends going into a corner....A mistake is a mistake is a mistake. Be it as attributed to DRS, wrong line or fat-footing it on the gas...

[Wouter Melissen]

Thats arguable....the same always held true for other adjustment mechanism, or simply, just the basic controls of the F1 cars. If a driver mis-adjusted his brake bias he could well swap ends going into a corner....A mistake is a mistake is a mistake. Be it as attributed to DRS, wrong line or fat-footing it on the gas...

But what is the point of the DRS system in qualifying? Especially because it can only be used on the straights in the race.

[Matra et Alpine]

ahm I summarised to much on the KERS

It's not the weight that affects the tyres, but the way its operation alters the tyre loads is how I read it applying engineering principles.

So brakes can impart force X on the rears. KERS on full charge exerts ADDITIONAL force Y. So more force at the contact patch in the braking zone.
Once you are on to the straights the driver is on full throttle and the force is always on the contact patch. There are no places on an F1 circuit where the tyres are not under acceleration, decelleration or cornering. F1 cars dont coast With Kers the rears are getting additional braking -- and for balance reasons probably the front too.

[LeonOfTheDead]

ahm I summarised to much on the KERS

It's not the weight that affects the tyres, but the way its operation alters the tyre loads is how I read it applying engineering principles.

So brakes can impart force X on the rears. KERS on full charge exerts ADDITIONAL force Y. So more force at the contact patch in the braking zone.
Once you are on to the straights the driver is on full throttle and the force is always on the contact patch. There are no places on an F1 circuit where the tyres are not under acceleration, decelleration or cornering. F1 cars dont coast With Kers the rears are getting additional braking -- and for balance reasons probably the front too.

I meant that there wouldn't have been more stress compared to a KERS-less car.
Now it's clearer though, and I have to admit for some reason I've read "lateral forces" in your previous post, don't know what I was thinking about
My fault then.

I believe the overall brake force is sort of the same though. Given a certain friction provided by the tires, which I'd assume they were using 100% of even without the KERS, adding the system is going to impose to use less brakes at the rear to balance the KERS' effect.
The front end shouldn't, theoretically, being influenced considering once again that they already were using all the friction provided by the tires. It surely makes the braking phases less controlled, probably requiring ad adapted driving and therefore some additional tire wear.

If they weren't already using all the grip, then they weren't trying hard enough. In 2009 we never saw a KERS equipped car outperforming a KERS-less car under braking, afaik.

Actually, considering the car's balance under braking, I'm very curious to know how much the rear brakes are used both with and without the KERS.
It's definitely not a situation as extreme as on bikes, still.

[RacingManiac]

I don't know if it imparts "extra" force on the tire under braking. They can lock the tires before KERS....the amount of recovery is proportional to the speed and the deceleration, which is limited by tire grip. Now the proportion to the front and rear brake wear may alter as with KERS recharging more of the braking for the rear axle comes from the motor/generator and the front are from the brake...

As for the forward acceleration, F1 car are pretty traction limited as is, additional power will probably makes it easier to over power the tire. It is a judgement call thing on driver's end though, since he still makes the decision when to deploy the extra power....