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  #16  
Old 12-17-2010, 12:39 AM
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It is kinda funny, but the negative reaction we are giving him is not a good way for him to learn new things.

I remember a long time ago we had a big battle over which engine was "better," the LS7 or S85B50 (in the E60 M5). This was when I knew way less about cars and after some reading, I learned that slagging American engines because they had big cubes but "low" power was silly.

I think part of the idea here is to be open to newcomers - a lot of the established regulars here I'd imagine had stupid starts (I certainly did).

That being said, I'd say that thebrochureman needs to learn to play by the unwritten rules of UCP.

Sorry brochureman about talking about you as though you weren't here.
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2010, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
the holden, because it's easier to fix/maintain.
i wouldnt say holdens are easier to fix / maintain, as both holden and the german / japanese stuff require equal amounts of expertise to work on (diagnostic equipment, trained technicians etc), more cost effective compared to german and italian stuff maybe, as their servicing costs are horrendous.

in my opinion, holden and ford stuff is dumb technology. when you look across the board at all manufacturers, yes, including *sigh* hyundai, they have pretty much all evolved into smarter more efficient cars, adopting different drivetrains, suspension setups etc. examples of this are subaru's awd platforms, mercedes s class's plethora of nasa-like technology on wheels (which is often looked at as to what we will have in regular cars in 10 years .... look at the current s class etc), hyundai embracing diesel technology etc. there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of advancements in the automotive industry, which some manufacturers have embraced, and others have gone on their own path. take holden for example, same layout that they have had since kingswood days. sure they have refined it a bit, but it is essentially the same thing that they have been selling for decades, a large family vehicle with a 6 or 8 cyl engine and rwd. they have not moved away from this formula since they have been producing cars (look at the fx and fj, same deal, tractor-like pos ride, low tech and rwd etc). i dont understand the mentality of a commodore / falcon buyer, as there are far more intelligent purchases to be made. cars such as subaru's liberty pisses all over what a falcon or commodore offer, and it holds its resale value and oozes quality (go and check one out if you doubt it). also compare a vw golf or polo with a ford focus or holden barina. its a no brainer. i could rabbit on all night about different cars that carve up holden and ford on so many levels, but whats the point, you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink. for me, holden and ford stuff is for people who dont know anything about cars and are happy to be average, happy to make do with what they have, as if they new differently, knew that there was a far better quality car just around the corner for similar money that holds its resale value (unlike holden and ford), they would grab it with both hands. each to their own i guess, give me jap / italian / german stuff any day.
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  #18  
Old 12-17-2010, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpv_gtho View Post
Nothing would run the same after 20 years. Cars are only built to last 10 years generally, or around 300,000km's which is the average expected engine mileage. Transmissions can only last half that typically.
the v8 in the lexus ls400 was tested to do 1 million kays. obviously with servicing etc.
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  #19  
Old 12-17-2010, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by f6fhellcat13 View Post
becuz hoaldan iz runn bye a bunch uf idiuts knamed jeneral moaters. theyre enjins ar sum of da wurst ever because they hav lo specific powwer but they do maek moar torck than da masarti becuz they hav mor cuebs. itz liek aksing wai duz fromlua one car no hav ggod torque frum 2-6k rpm
err ....... meh ...
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  #20  
Old 12-17-2010, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
i wouldnt say holdens are easier to fix / maintain
i would.
you said it yourself.. cheaper. if it comes down to replacing a $20 part or a $200 part, i know what's getting done first..
edit: and as mentioned above the driveline has less stress on it.
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Last edited by clutch-monkey; 12-17-2010 at 05:03 AM.
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  #21  
Old 12-17-2010, 06:56 AM
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The way this discussion is going, its really for another topic, so i'll try and swing it back a bit. The original claim was that a car like the VXR8 cant be compared to something alot more expensive like one of the German saloons because of the quality difference. IMO, there is a difference but nothing anywhere near as substantial as claimed. I wont speak for Audi's but the quality of BMW's and Mercedes Benz's have tanked over the last generation. Is the Holden dumb technology? Compared to the flashy German stuff, sure. But its alot more reliable as well which is something i dont think you'll agree with though.
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  #22  
Old 12-17-2010, 07:55 AM
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Think of it like this; precision engineering does not equate to longevity/reliability. They may be linked, and they usually are, but you can certainly have one without the other.
I know it's pretty cliche, but let me make an analogy to the AK-47 and the M16. The AK is most definitely not precision-engineered, it was purposefully designed with sloppy tolerances, but those sloppy tolerances mean that it can operate over a much larger variety of conditiosn with significantly less care and mean it can lob large slugs in the general direction that it's pointed in.
The (first) M16, on the other hand, was much more accurate; usually you hit what you were aiming at. However, because it was "precision-engineered" and as a result of that inherently-delicate it was much more prone to failure.

Best of both worlds? I dunno for guns. clutch?
Probably old Mercs for cars, though.
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  #23  
Old 12-17-2010, 12:24 PM
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Mercedes-Benz 500E, for ultimate Q-car status. 190E 2.5-16 Evo II if you are feeling a bit kitsch.

As an aside, dissing a car because of the badge, the country of origin or the technology without actually having tried it, isn't a good idea. It reminds me of the M3 E92 v Z4M Coupe comparison. The V8 was clearly, faster, more efficient, more powerful, used less fuel, more practical and quicker round a track. But it definitely lacked the raw, thoroughbred and involving character that little straight six engined sportscar had.
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  #24  
Old 12-17-2010, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
i would.
you said it yourself.. cheaper. if it comes down to replacing a $20 part or a $200 part, i know what's getting done first..
edit: and as mentioned above the driveline has less stress on it.
easier to maintain does not mean cheaper, you didnt clarify what you meant. being easier to maintain is usually associated with the complexity of the servicing, needing to ship in expensive parts etc. german stuff is notoriously expensive to service. my dad had a 1995-ish bmw 735i (the E38 for the car nuts), which i remember was a great car, fast, very comfortable, wherever you looked it echoed quality, but he rocked home from the dealer one day after a minor service, AUD$2K later .... he ended up selling it due to the servicing costs. its a shame, it was a beautiful car.

on this front, i agree that holden and ford stuff will be in front. as far as lasting the distance, having good resale value, and feeling like a quality product all round however, these qualities certainly do not lie with holden and ford.
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  #25  
Old 12-17-2010, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrer View Post
Mercedes-Benz 500E, for ultimate Q-car status. 190E 2.5-16 Evo II if you are feeling a bit kitsch.

As an aside, dissing a car because of the badge, the country of origin or the technology without actually having tried it, isn't a good idea.
i live in australia, where the vauxhull is produced (i should i say produced as a holden and rebadged as a vauxhull), i have driven countless falcons and commodores, as well as stuff from all around the globe, so i would suggest that i would be in a position to comment on the shortcomings of holden and ford stuff. if you tried it, you would know what i am banging on about.
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  #26  
Old 12-17-2010, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by f6fhellcat13 View Post
Think of it like this; precision engineering does not equate to longevity/reliability. They may be linked, and they usually are, but you can certainly have one without the other.
I know it's pretty cliche, but let me make an analogy to the AK-47 and the M16 .... etc.
i see your rationale, but this is like comparing the tortoise and the hare. the hare being the delicate nimble precise machine and the hare being the sluggish 'will get there in the end' workhorse. whereas i am identifying quality and longevity issues that ford and holden have and also suggesting when compared with german stuff its pretty substandard.
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  #27  
Old 12-17-2010, 05:06 PM
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Having also driven a few current Falcodores, they feel like they'll last longer than the older ones. Certainly it used to be that the bodies would rot around the drivetrain, but the current ones seem much less flimsy.
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  #28  
Old 12-17-2010, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f6fhellcat13 View Post
Best of both worlds? I dunno for guns. clutch?
Probably old Mercs for cars, though.
pretty good analogy..
an old merc would be something like a solothurn S1-100 haha
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzycarnut View Post
easier to maintain does not mean cheaper, you didnt clarify what you meant. being easier to maintain is usually associated with the complexity of the servicing, needing to ship in expensive parts etc. german stuff is notoriously expensive to service. my dad had a 1995-ish bmw 735i (the E38 for the car nuts), which i remember was a great car, fast, very comfortable, wherever you looked it echoed quality, but he rocked home from the dealer one day after a minor service, AUD$2K later .... he ended up selling it due to the servicing costs. its a shame, it was a beautiful car.
that's exactly what i mean. it's cheaper and easier to replace bits that go bang in the holden, not least because it cuts out all the extraneous bullshit that comes with the other cars.
hell, the entire engine and gearbox can be replaced at less cost than a rebuild for the merc engine for example.
so in 20 years time the holden has a better chance of being impeccably maintained by average fanboy joe whereas the merc drivers have moved on to lease a string of other cars..
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  #29  
Old 12-17-2010, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ozziecarnut
German cars will still be purring beautifully in 20 years time
AHAHAHAHA!! you must be out of your head.

20 year old German cars are to be avoided like the plague, 20 year old Holdens and Fords are bought and driven and cheaply repaired every day.
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  #30  
Old 12-17-2010, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P4g4nite View Post
AHAHAHAHA!! you must be out of your head.

20 year old German cars are to be avoided like the plague,
idk, 911's of that vintage are solid..
having a look at mercs of that era though, oh lordy
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