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  #1531  
Old 08-06-2010, 04:09 PM
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Now that I think about it, that isn't exactly realistic. most of the time when there is later acceleration, the mechanism simulates it trough an inclination of the engine so that the gravitational acceleration is working also on the side of the engine. this however is reducing the value of the acceleration towards the ground, which would still be there in its full value in the real world.

NO NO NO.
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  #1532  
Old 08-06-2010, 04:10 PM
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is it gonna matter much, being dry sump?
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  #1533  
Old 08-06-2010, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
is it gonna matter much, being dry sump?
I honestly don't know, but then it wouldn't matter much also inclining the engine, possibly.
That's what happens when you try to put engineering in something which used to be about an engine attached to a carriage, with some brainless dude at the wheel/levers.
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  #1534  
Old 08-09-2010, 12:40 AM
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  #1535  
Old 08-11-2010, 02:22 PM
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  #1536  
Old 08-23-2010, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
Now that I think about it, that isn't exactly realistic. most of the time when there is later acceleration, the mechanism simulates it trough an inclination of the engine so that the gravitational acceleration is working also on the side of the engine.
Shodl all be taken into account by how much they tilt it

---->

PLUS

|
|
|
V

Equals
\
.\
..\
...\

All 3d vector forces can be summed to one resultant vector.

Granted there are minor differnces when oil ways are gto be taken into account.
BUT given that in those the oil is being pumped at >120psi(ish) then it's noise floor.

As a test for sump pan pick up it's an excellent and close approximation.
Beats the "old way" when we designed our own baffles for sumps and would test by half filling and then tilting it to see how long it took to shift the oil MAN I've been modding cars for FAR too long
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  #1537  
Old 08-23-2010, 02:26 PM
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  #1538  
Old 08-24-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
Now that I think about it, that isn't exactly realistic. most of the time when there is later acceleration, the mechanism simulates it trough an inclination of the engine so that the gravitational acceleration is working also on the side of the engine. this however is reducing the value of the acceleration towards the ground, which would still be there in its full value in the real world.

NO NO NO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
is it gonna matter much, being dry sump?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonOfTheDead View Post
I honestly don't know, but then it wouldn't matter much also inclining the engine, possibly.
That's what happens when you try to put engineering in something which used to be about an engine attached to a carriage, with some brainless dude at the wheel/levers.
I realized that too- the engine is being tilted around, but there's no real acceleration like a real car would experience, right?
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  #1539  
Old 08-24-2010, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
Shodl all be taken into account by how much they tilt it

---->

PLUS

|
|
|
V

Equals
\
.\
..\
...\

All 3d vector forces can be summed to one resultant vector.

Granted there are minor differnces when oil ways are gto be taken into account.
BUT given that in those the oil is being pumped at >120psi(ish) then it's noise floor.

As a test for sump pan pick up it's an excellent and close approximation.
Beats the "old way" when we designed our own baffles for sumps and would test by half filling and then tilting it to see how long it took to shift the oil MAN I've been modding cars for FAR too long

I'm unfortunately quite familiar with vectors...
The difference being that on a real world situation the engine is always being affected by at least 1g towards the ground, plus some additional towards the external side of the corner. Only considering corners, without up and downhill portions.
On that test, the engine is always under 1g of acceleration, no matter which direction. So when the system is simulating a corner, there like (A)g towards the ground, and (B)g pushing the car laterally, but (A)+(B)= 1, considering them as vectors.
In the real world you always have 1g + (B) > 1g, so that was the problem I was considering.

Might be insignificant, but it's there, and is unfortunately ignored by far too many folks watching those videos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
I realized that too- the engine is being tilted around, but there's no real acceleration like a real car would experience, right?
Sort of yes, see above.
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  #1540  
Old 08-24-2010, 04:18 PM
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^^ Nearly right
Yes it cannot exceed 1g.
So an accelerating downhill section that bottoms out will not be accurately modelled.
Nor will a >1G cornering or >1G braking.
On a road going 911, how often do you think those conditions actually happen ?
The 1G + (B) only really comes in to play when (B) is positive and large
Thus I contest again, a good testbed, especially for surge as the platform movement - although polar vectors in fact again can approximate much hiegher G for short periods.

Again, the rig is evaluating the OIL PICKUP.
So rather than seeing the ENGINE, see the oil
SO there IS a close approximation to "real world acceleration" as the oil would experience it !
Be an oil droplet in the rig, my padowan.
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  #1541  
Old 08-24-2010, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
^^ Nearly right
Yes it cannot exceed 1g.
So an accelerating downhill section that bottoms out will not be accurately modelled.
Nor will a >1G cornering or >1G braking.
On a road going 911, how often do you think those conditions actually happen ?
The 1G + (B) only really comes in to play when (B) is positive and large
Nope, at every corner. If you consider a coordinate system with X directed tangent the direction of the car, Y perpendicular to X towards the external side of the corner and Z towards the sky, (B) is always positive, albeit different in direction accordingly to the direction of the corner.
Typical (B) value can easily be 0.5 in many conditions, and up to 1g in track action, if not more (depending on the model).
Considering (B) = 0.5g, overall acceleration would be 1.11g VS 1g of the simulator. Not exactly a minor difference. Worst case would be 1.41g VS 1g with a 1g lateral acceleration.
Regardless of the corner being towards left or right.

Quote:
Thus I contest again, a good testbed, especially for surge as the platform movement - although polar vectors in fact again can approximate much hiegher G for short periods.

Again, the rig is evaluating the OIL PICKUP.
So rather than seeing the ENGINE, see the oil
SO there IS a close approximation to "real world acceleration" as the oil would experience it !
Be an oil droplet in the rig, my padowan.
The oil would still experience that same acceleration, even if its viscosity would quite reduce the inertial effects.
I don't know if that's a good approximation or not, that's not what I was saying, just that this is an approximation.
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  #1542  
Old 08-24-2010, 04:58 PM
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Matra et Alpine Matra et Alpine is offline
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As said as the rig is their to test long term oil pickup.
Picture being the oil.

Simple image....

a tub with the oil laying flat
|........|
|........|
|........|
+--------+

Cornering at >1G then the downward and outward forces are equal and thus the oil will sit thus ...

|........|
|........|
|........|
+--------+


NOW, tilt that image till the "surface" of the dots are level and you get ( best approximation using characters )

\..........
.\.......✓
..\....✓
...\.✓


Thus 1G has "positioned" the oil where it would be.
Now the "failure" of the approximation is it does not show the "compression" the oil is undergoing by virtue of only having 1G isntead of 1.11G as prolonged force. Nor does it exhibit the forces in theoilways. But 14psi (1G) is insignificant compared to the 120+psi in the oilways and so is in the noise floor of the "model".
BUT, to remind ourselves the rig is to see the performance of the oil pan pickup and that is about testing how well the oil is movig "in free air" in the bottom of the sump.

ergo, back to being a damn good long term test prior to doing it for real where REAL forces at their proper magnitude apply.
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  #1543  
Old 08-24-2010, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
ergo, back to being a damn good long term test prior to doing it for real where REAL forces at their proper magnitude apply.
That's for sure.
I'm a bit doubtful on how you got the 14 PSI = 1g.
Given that's a pressure, you'd need something more to convert it into an acceleration.

14 PSI = 14*6900 N/m^2
1g = 1 *9.8 m/s^2

Oil's mass and pipe's section have to come into play to balance the dimensional analysis.
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  #1544  
Old 08-26-2010, 01:40 PM
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Annotations are a must for this series of videos!


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  #1545  
Old 08-26-2010, 02:39 PM
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