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  #151  
Old 08-02-2011, 12:26 PM
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I can see the whole "noise" thing. Drama for these cars in everyday tangible sense, noise is very important. Turbo is always counter productive of that. And in that case also, its not "too late" as by all account the car is not delivered yet. All the tests in magazines are of the pre-production cars. Driving experience wise. 99% of the owner who owns these are way below the limit of the car in terms of their driving ability. Few will ever venture beyond stumping on the gas and being pushed into the seat. In that kind of usage, the suppleness of the McLaren suspension will shine. On limit stuff, I question the validity of the complaints. 5th Gear and such went on about the power slide and unable to turn ESP off. Both things which I doubt average owner will do. Evo mentioned the lack of LSD and the "disconnect" caused by the Proactive Chassis Control(hydraulic roll bar). The LSD thing I can see, but even my el-cheapo XDS on a VW works decently well on a FWD car, I can't see the 200+k McLaren works worse....and they should go talk to Sabastien Loeb on how "disconnect" his Citroen Xsara was when he was smoking the WRC field....Same technology, with McLaren's being more advanced with semi-active damping.

Most auto writers, you throw them something they don't understand, they see it as the non-existent fault line.....
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  #152  
Old 08-02-2011, 02:02 PM
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No one is going to like numbness coming through anywhere in a fast car. Engineer types can be their own worst enemy...and I'm sure there are open lines to the McLaren facility if they want clarification on how things should operate. I'm sure a technician could babble on shoving technical jargon into their ears until their eyes glaze over.

All the gizmo's are great until they begin to mask the driving experience which I gather was the crux of some of the bad marks.

On the other hand...Loeb was paid to drive the numb car whether he liked it or not. As talented as he is I'm sure he would have preferred the car giving feedback...so I can't fault magazine testers who drive many types of cars wanting a better driving experience.
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  #153  
Old 08-02-2011, 03:56 PM
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Numb car won't help confidence in driving a rally car with inches from crashing into the nearest scenery at 120mph. No feedback will not help with handling a car in low grip condition.....And to use the word numbness is probably way exaggerating in the context....a Toyota Camry is numb, and MP4-12C is not a Camry...

For what its worth, McLaren won the C&D comparo against GT2 and 458....
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Last edited by RacingManiac; 08-02-2011 at 03:59 PM.
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  #154  
Old 08-02-2011, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
Numb car won't help confidence in driving a rally car with inches from crashing into the nearest scenery at 120mph. No feedback will not help with handling a car in low grip condition.....And to use the word numbness is probably way exaggerating in the context....a Toyota Camry is numb, and MP4-12C is not a Camry...

For what its worth, McLaren won the C&D comparo against GT2 and 458....
I read that review, and thought it was pretty goofy. Their main complaint with the 458 was that it felt wide? That is pretty stupid in my books.

The McLaren seems to me to be more livable than the 458, and part of the cost of this is excitement. The McLaren can be ultra fast, but it seems to be the easiest and most comfortable car to drive around town as well.

As I read it, the McLaren is the fastest, and also the easiest to drive at a reasonable pace, with the GT2 being hardcore, and the 458 falling somewhere in between. The 12C may not be the most dramatic, but it is more livable (if you want it to be), and if you do want to track it, it is fast as shit. The press did not rave about this car, but to be fair, it may well be the best proposition for those who are actually capable of buying a car in it's class...

Then again, they may well just buy the Ferrari because of the little horsie badge on the front.

EDIT: C/D did an earlier test, and here are the cars and their rankings:

5th V12 Vantage
4th SLS
3rd R8
2nd 458
1st Turbo S

I would have liked to have seen the LFA in the 458/GT2/12C fight - I think these are the natural competitors at the just sub-supercar level.

Last edited by Kitdy; 08-02-2011 at 04:09 PM.
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  #155  
Old 08-02-2011, 04:08 PM
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Thank dog they are not all exactly alike.
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  #156  
Old 08-02-2011, 04:32 PM
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There's something that bothers me a bit on a philosophical level.

Character and soul can be infused by changing some parameters in a computer?

EDIT Well at least it looks good, but it has silly doors...
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Last edited by Ferrer; 08-02-2011 at 04:36 PM.
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  #157  
Old 08-02-2011, 04:42 PM
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Thank dog they are not all exactly alike.
So much for homogenization. The GT2 is a rear engnied short wheelbase flat 6 TT, the 12C I think of as a GT-R that is more super; a mid-engined technological tour de force with a TT V8, the 458 a somewhat restrained mid-engined NA Italian wailer, and the LFA a front-engined revving Toyota attempt at a supercar with an advanced degree in materials science.
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  #158  
Old 08-02-2011, 09:16 PM
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There's something that bothers me a bit on a philosophical level.

Character and soul can be infused by changing some parameters in a computer?

EDIT Well at least it looks good, but it has silly doors...
What I don't get, about all the complaints about how "computerized" MP4-12C is, is that 458 is no less computerized....E-diff, MR dampers, they all served to sanitize the driving experience. Its no different to the McLaren, just differ in that how much they dial up the "excitement", as in how much illusion of control they bestow the driver. I definite see one thing that is dragging the McLaren down. Ferrari has been in this business for a while, they know how to play to ego of their affluent buyers. Where as at this point McLaren may simply be making a car as "good" objectively as they can, which in the process they may have ignored, or simply does not know how to sell it to the buyer. If thats the case, then give them sometimes then it'll turn around pretty easily. As really, its all just in the tuning....

Or they can be like Porsche/Nissan and give little care about it and still sell thousands of 911 Turbo /GTR....
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  #159  
Old 08-02-2011, 09:59 PM
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What I don't get, about all the complaints about how "computerized" MP4-12C is,..
whats so hard to understand ?

the Ferrari feels more exciting to push - whereas the supreme competancy of the 12C doesnt (as much)

its easy to understand that an easy-to-drive car is going to be faster over unknown roads for the average joe. what the jurnos are saying is that while the macca is faster (everywhere basically) its not as fun to push hard as the 458

& i know what sort of driving my 2 seater purchase is for. comfort is for the daily family wagon
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  #160  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:02 PM
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Wow. We are having an intelligent and interesting discussion about a car on UCP.

A rarity these days.
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  #161  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacingManiac View Post
What I don't get, about all the complaints about how "computerized" MP4-12C is, is that 458 is no less computerized....E-diff, MR dampers, they all served to sanitize the driving experience. Its no different to the McLaren, just differ in that how much they dial up the "excitement", as in how much illusion of control they bestow the driver. I definite see one thing that is dragging the McLaren down. Ferrari has been in this business for a while, they know how to play to ego of their affluent buyers. Where as at this point McLaren may simply be making a car as "good" objectively as they can, which in the process they may have ignored, or simply does not know how to sell it to the buyer. If thats the case, then give them sometimes then it'll turn around pretty easily. As really, its all just in the tuning....

Or they can be like Porsche/Nissan and give little care about it and still sell thousands of 911 Turbo /GTR....
I can agree with that. Still you have to wonder how much of the experience comes from the car itself and how much from the computer-set parameters. And I'm guessing that's IBM winning here...
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Wow. We are having a discussion about a car on UCP.

A rarity these days.
Fixed it up for you.
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  #162  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:18 PM
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Fixed it up for you.
Oh, for sure that as well.
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  #163  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:41 PM
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& i know what sort of driving my 2 seater purchase is for. comfort is for the daily family wagon
will you post shots of your Lotus 7 when you get it?
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  #164  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:53 PM
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What is McLaren's rationale behind using the "Brake Diff"? Weight? Cost?

Ferrari is quite hip to the fact that they, as a brand, have "soul." It is a myth (true or otherwise) that they quite willingly perpetuate through most of their activities. I would wager that Ferrari and McLaren as companies, F1 teams, and as competitors in the low-end supercar class behave quite similarly. I would also imagine that these cars are more similar than journos would have us believe; Ferrari is well known for their less-than-honest press-car treatment, so for all we know the 458 could be less adept than we are told. I also think that Ferraris have had their souls squeezed out by technology for quite some time, and that a lot of their driver feedback is manufactured by the same computers that control the throttle, suspension, brakes, gearbox, and complimentary toaster. I have faith that McLaren has the ability to bring the facade up to Ferrari standards, but then what's the point of the McLaren?

Or, I could just be a bitter armchair expert sore that I will never drive either...
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  #165  
Old 08-03-2011, 12:01 AM
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I would also imagine that these cars are more similar than journos would have us believe;
that is the (self-created) reason of existence for journos. If they would write that cars are more or less all the same, why bother testing different ones.
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