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  #76  
Old 06-29-2009, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
So basically you're basing your entire opinion of Michael Jackson on your ignorance of most of his career? That's not something to be proud of...
Well, considering I haven't been living in a cave, shouldn't I have known of the man's influence, if he was in fact as influential as you claim him to have been? I'll admit I'm not exactly Mr. Current Affairs, but I do have a pretty good idea of the other people that left their stamp on the world in regards to racial equality. Not to belittle MJ's efforts, just saying.
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  #77  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by RobPorsche View Post
Well, considering I haven't been living in a cave, shouldn't I have known of the man's influence, if he was in fact as influential as you claim him to have been? I'll admit I'm not exactly Mr. Current Affairs, but I do have a pretty good idea of the other people that left their stamp on the world in regards to racial equality. Not to belittle MJ's efforts, just saying.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's your age that has limited your experience and knowledge of him.

Every time you see a music video that isn't just a simple shot of someone singing at the camera, you're seeing his influence. Every time you see any kind of robotic dance move, you're seeing his influence. Every time you hear about an album having more than one #1 hit, you're seeing his influence. You just don't know it because you take all of those accomplishments for granted.
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  #78  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:30 PM
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I'm curious as to why Matt, who rarely if ever posts, is all of a sudden essentially going up to bat for Michael Jackson. Matt, why are you getting so defensive over people ridiculing this man's death? Do you think it's a lack of respect of human dignity? Why are you at all bothering arguing with people you never usually talk to on the internet? Why am I bothering to do the same? Serious questions.

The way I see it is the man was a child molester and that's about as low as they come. People cracking jokes about his death doesn't really bother me - I wouldn't do it - but I definitely found some of them funny. Big deal. Was the world really a better place with him living and molesting children repeatedly and paying off the victim's families? I think that's a pretty pertinent question. Do I feel sorry for his family, friends, and fans? Yes. That being said, did I respect him at all? No. Does that mean it's OK to joke about his death? I guess not but as I said, I wouldn't do it but I understand why people are doing it.

I hate memes but I'll use one that I think sums up the situation pretty well here:

The internet. Serious business.

I'll close with what I did when I heard he died. I bought Billie Jean and Don't Stop Until You Get Enough. Both are fabulous.
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  #79  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's your age that has limited your experience and knowledge of him.

Every time you see a music video that isn't just a simple shot of someone singing at the camera, you're seeing his influence. Every time you see any kind of robotic dance move, you're seeing his influence. Every time you hear about an album having more than one #1 hit, you're seeing his influence. You just don't know it because you take all of those accomplishments for granted.
Ah yes, but was it he or his handlers, choreographers, music video directors, record label executives, or other less well known acts that he copied?

Maybe it was him, but I'm not certain to grant him all that credit.
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  #80  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:59 PM
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Why am I defending him? Because someone who had that much industry influence, that much talent, that much raw genius, should be respected. I'm not showing any respect or any defense for any of the bad things he may or may not have done. (It's also too bad that we still live in a society where just being accused of a crime can lead to a lifetime of ridicule over it, regardless of the lack of proof) He was a ****ed up individual. We can all acknowledge and accept that. But, that does not in any way lessen his talent and the genius of his entertainment. The legacy of his music, of his performance, of his his talent and the respect of the death of a man and his family are what I'm defending. And frankly, it's sad that I even have to explain that. I would be making these same arguments, bringing these same defenses for anyone that I happen to know anything about or I happened to grow up having an influence on my life.

As for your other question, he was notorious for being a control freak and a perfectionist. His handlers didn't handle him, he was his own choreographer and choreographed his backup dancers as well. He didn't direct his videos, but he had the concepts and found the directors that could bring his ideas to life. It's all well-documented. You just have to read a few news stories and witness accounts of his methodical way of working. It was even that way for his upcoming concerts. It was all his idea, it was his planning. And by all accounts it was going to be the biggest entertainment venue the world has seen. Some people who were working during the rehearsals put it on par with opening and closing ceremonies for the Olympics.
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  #81  
Old 06-29-2009, 10:04 PM
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Also, please don't question the validity of my posting here, for any reason. I could not post for years and still have more posts and more of a history here than you. I was the first member and there's a part of the forum named for me. I was here more than three years before you.
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  #82  
Old 06-29-2009, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Also, please don't question the validity of my posting here, for any reason. I could not post for years and still have more posts and more of a history here than you. I was the first member and there's a part of the forum named for me. I was here more than three years before you.
My apologies Matt, I meant no offence.
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  #83  
Old 06-29-2009, 10:14 PM
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Accepted and forgotten.
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  #84  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's your age that has limited your experience and knowledge of him.

Every time you see a music video that isn't just a simple shot of someone singing at the camera, you're seeing his influence. Every time you see any kind of robotic dance move, you're seeing his influence. Every time you hear about an album having more than one #1 hit, you're seeing his influence. You just don't know it because you take all of those accomplishments for granted.
Point taken. I am only 21, and I do take all of those things for granted. I never thought twice about any one of them, or their origin. If all of what you described to Kitdy is so, then I can understand why you're so passionately defending him. Its obviously something you have a lot of knowledge about, and my own points weren't really backed by much. More just from what the media portrayed him as.
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  #85  
Old 06-30-2009, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's your age that has limited your experience and knowledge of him.

Every time you see a music video that isn't just a simple shot of someone singing at the camera, you're seeing his influence.

Every time you hear about an album having more than one #1 hit, you're seeing his influence.

You just don't know it because you take all of those accomplishments for granted.
Deifying a weirdo is one thing, but rewriting history is quite another.

I'm old enough to recall grooving to as-described music videos, even 40+ years ago, which (obviously) had zero influence from Jacko.

What about all those 'smash hit' albums I bought, dating from the mid 1960s, the ones with multiple #1 hits from the Strolling Bones and Beatles etc? What possible influence could/did this headcase have over those albums?

I don't think its objectionable to make fair comment or indeed take the piss out of recently deceased public figures, especially those as controversial as Princess Di, or as dubious as Jackson. Does this loon deserve mandatory universal glorification? Definitely not from my perspective. More offensive imo is intolerance of valid opinion, or black humour. In fact MJ was a sick joke to millions.
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  #86  
Old 06-30-2009, 04:29 AM
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what do you define as valid opinion nota? one that respects the accomplishments of the biggest artist in pop music since elvis? or one that takes entirely unofficial and unproven accusations and therefore pins the same person as a 'sick joke'?. If you didnt like the man then fair enough. But for pity's sake have some humane decency. If this is your opinion from your perspective, then I'd like to know what perspective that is.

If you listened to music 40+ years ago, and listen to music now. Then you cant deny how much of an impact MJ had on the industry between the era of the jackson five and his last album. You'd struggle to find an artist alive today who hasnt been influenced by Jackson in some way or another. More of his albums sold across the globe than any other artist in history. 750 million to be exact. He remains to hold the record for the Most Successful Entertainer of All Time. He physically revolutionized the music video and live performance industry. It is quite clear that his music was and is literally admired by millions all over the world. He donated and raised millions of dollars for beneficial causes through his foundations, charity singles, and support of 39 charities. Of all the people to live on this earth in modern history, more people know of the name Michael Jackson than any other Human Being. And you claim he is a 'headcase'?

We have all established that he was an unusual person. But someone who lived a life like that could not turn out any other way. Whether you want to believe it or not. The fact is that the multiple cases surrounding him in the last decade were never proven to be founded. One thing however is for sure. Those people who took the time to take advantage of his friendship made alot of money from it. If the court cases had never happened, who knows what else he would have achieved by remaining at his peak into the 21st century. I would guarantee that his eventual fate would have been different. The man came across alot of controversy and emotional challenges in his life, but he always maintained his mission to use his music to make the world a better place. With that said. And unfounded criticisms aside. I can honestly say that he accomplished that. And for how many millions of people you claim to consider him a sick joke. It is certain that the amount of people in the world who respected and loved him would eclipse those people many many times over. I really dont think you or many other people in this thread quite understand how important his death is in the musical world. This sits comfortably alongside elvis and lennon in every sense.

I'm not saying anything else in this thread. While some people have respect for the dead whether or not they were a fan. Others cant find it in themselves to see the good in people even in the time of mourning.

Last edited by Cotterik; 06-30-2009 at 04:52 AM.
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  #87  
Old 06-30-2009, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's your age that has limited your experience and knowledge of him.

Every time you see a music video that isn't just a simple shot of someone singing at the camera, you're seeing his influence.
BEATLES ... Hard Days Night .... HELP!
Quote:
Every time you see any kind of robotic dance move, you're seeing his influence.
James Brown --

Quote:
Every time you hear about an album having more than one #1 hit, you're seeing his influence.
Beatles, Rolling Stones, and acoudl fill the screen with 60s bands.
Quote:
You just don't know it because you take all of those accomplishments for granted.
for sure

None of those are MUSIC influence tho are they
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  #88  
Old 06-30-2009, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Cotterik View Post
what do you define as valid opinion nota?
Imho post #85 is valid opinion.
Quote:
one that respects the accomplishments of the biggest artist in pop music since elvis? or one that takes entirely unofficial and unproven accusations and therefore pins the same person as a 'sick joke'?. If you didnt like the man then fair enough. But for pity's sake have some humane decency.
Where do you draw the line regards having 'respekt' towards a person of derision, of inarguable dubious character?

For me, MJ crossed the River Styx years ago, and by some measure - also valid opinion.
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  #89  
Old 06-30-2009, 06:01 AM
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You want proof of the man's influence?

I think this argument pretty much gives creedance.

One must also remember it was a string of producers and songwriters, along with his own ear, voice and dance moves, that helped him rise to fame.

I'd also like to point out that MTV actually didn't play his video "Billie Jean" until they were basically forced to. so Matt's comments about the simple act of singing into a camera? yeah...not so much.

His use of the Epically long music video, certainly. that was original, but it was simply harnessing a new technology and one could almost presume that any pop artist of the same time could have just as easily tapped into that.

Like it or not the success he had in the last 30 years will always be overshadowed by the caricature he became. I can't be sure but a lot of his fame to my generation comes from recognising him as two different people - the performer, who appears on TV, and the person, who dangles babies from 4th floor balconies. There is a disconnect there for most of those of the current generation who claim to be influenced by him.

However, his star power is the fact that despite him being dead he's still causing controversy and chatter, something thats unlikely to stop.
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  #90  
Old 08-20-2009, 08:29 PM
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Merged the threads, please use the search feature next time.
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