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  #106  
Old 10-15-2009, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
any objections?
Not particularly, just a bit of nostalgia, hearkening back to the endless debates around the 2004 US presidential election. Oh, those were the days.

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Originally Posted by jcp123 View Post
Unfortunately, which side you are on will come down to politics for most folks, which is a sad for such an otherwise glistening accolade.
Well, in this instance, yes. If the award was given as "encouragement" in the period of time between George W. Bush declaring that we (the US) planned to remove the WMDs from Iraq and discovering there were not, in fact, WMDs, I think we know where the opinions on UCP would fall. So which side you're on isn't a hard and fast judgement, unfortunately people with a bias (which is everyone whether you would like to believe that or not) tend to be incapable of being impartial in these matters.
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  #107  
Old 10-15-2009, 11:04 PM
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You're right in saying that everyine has some kind of bias. Which is why for years I have wondered why people keep fighting against the bias in news. News is a human product subject to the same biases as anything else of human origin; if there's a flaw, it's when reporters portray this bias as fact rather than as opinion. Bias should be embraced and acknowledged as part of the news, rather than shunned and put behind closed doors so that games can be played upon those who still believe news to be neutral. As I said, the Nobel Committee had to be aware they were leaving themselves open to attacks on a partisan/political front from the get-go.

As for the WMD's, even Israel's Mossad, acknowledged as possibly the world's most effective and accurate intelligence force, said that Saddam possessed WMD's. That's believable considering his use of them agains the Kurds back in the day. It is my opinion, and nothing more than opinion and speculation, that Saddam, being no dummy himself, heard the US's drumbeats from afar, read the writing on the wall, and either sequestered them in neighboring Syria or else disposed of them post haste. Having said that, I believe in noninterventionalism (NOT the same as isolationism), and as such, don't believe Iraq should have been engaged in the first place.
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Last edited by jcp123; 10-15-2009 at 11:07 PM.
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  #108  
Old 10-15-2009, 11:55 PM
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As for the WMD's, even Israel's Mossad, acknowledged as possibly the world's most effective and accurate intelligence force, said that Saddam possessed WMD's. That's believable
Good way to 'justify' an unwarantable invasion .. get your proxy nation (Israel, hardly an independant source) to validate the BS for you.

AU Intelligence were privvy to much the same information as the US had (incuding decoding intel for the US) yet found pre-invasion that there was no credible evidence of WMDs, stockpiled or otherwise. However the US desired a 'manufactured' outcome to justify its outrageous mantra. There was no secret to the WMD lie then, or later, as was publically revealed hereabouts by AU intel sources pre-invasion and subsequent Govt inquiries etc.
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  #109  
Old 10-16-2009, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nota View Post
Good way to 'justify' an unwarantable invasion .. get your proxy nation (Israel, hardly an independant source) to validate the BS for you.

AU Intelligence were privvy to much the same information as the US had (incuding decoding intel for the US) yet found pre-invasion that there was no credible evidence of WMDs, stockpiled or otherwise. However the US desired a 'manufactured' outcome to justify its outrageous mantra. There was no secret to the WMD lie then, or later, as was publically revealed hereabouts by AU intel sources pre-invasion and subsequent Govt inquiries etc.
Like I said, as a non-interventionalist, I don't support our Iraq affaire, but I do uniquely trust Mossad to give intelligence that's most timely, accurate, and relevant. Saddam's use of WMD's agains the Kurds, as a proven use of WMD's, speaks usefully against the late Saddam Hussein. Still, if not for Mossad, I'd be inclined to join my more liberal collegues and calling the Iraq intelligence faulty and inadequate. Regardless of the Mossad, I don't think our invasion of Iraq to be our business. In a sense, an invaded Iraq creates a more unstable Middle East, speaking against Mossad's bias to take Saddam out; in a sense, they had more intelligence before our invasion, and I can't believe Mossad wouldn't have anticipated that.
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  #110  
Old 10-16-2009, 01:04 AM
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I wasn't quoting.
OK, then but why where you emphasizing the word: DIFFERENT. Diplomacy (multi- or bilateral) is per definition between different countries....and all countries involved in diplomacy do this in their own interest, understanding that if they don't engage, they are worse of. Yet, there was one world leader of a civilised country who sort of failed to understand this general principle in the recent past.
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  #111  
Old 10-16-2009, 04:52 AM
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OK, then but why where you emphasizing the word: DIFFERENT. Diplomacy (multi- or bilateral) is per definition between different countries....and all countries involved in diplomacy do this in their own interest, understanding that if they don't engage, they are worse of.
I was elaborating on your comment:

Quote:
Obama deserves it (according to the Committe) BECAUSE the US position has improved internationally.
The comment wasn't referring to relationships between countries, but rather to US alone.
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  #112  
Old 10-16-2009, 05:01 AM
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The comment wasn't referring to relationships between countries, but rather to US alone.
I find that comment hard to grasp. Diplomacy can be between two countries (bilateral), the US being one of them, it can also be between a number of countries, whereby a joint (multilateral) initiative (in which the US is a partner) can foster relationships between a number countries.
I think in both cases the diplomatic position of the US has been greatly strengthened.
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  #113  
Old 10-16-2009, 08:45 AM
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Some of you have a very narrow view on what peace means. Peace does not always mean an instant end to all conflicts. A conflict with an end-goal that will, by nearly everyone's definition, provide a better and safer life for people in the world IS a peaceful action.

Allowing the Holocaust to continue, without a conflict that ended it, would be peace by your definition. The same applies here. Would leaving the Taliban and Al Qaeda alone, in order to avoid conflict, provide an atmosphere of peace?
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  #114  
Old 10-17-2009, 12:12 AM
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Some of you have a very narrow view on what peace means. Peace does not always mean an instant end to all conflicts. A conflict with an end-goal that will, by nearly everyone's definition, provide a better and safer life for people in the world IS a peaceful action.

Allowing the Holocaust to continue, without a conflict that ended it, would be peace by your definition. The same applies here. Would leaving the Taliban and Al Qaeda alone, in order to avoid conflict, provide an atmosphere of peace?
Or what about intervening in the whole darfur mess? I hear a lot of people demanding that as the worlds superpower we do something about it, and yet I can't see it going off very well.
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  #115  
Old 10-12-2012, 06:05 AM
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Congratulations Europe!
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  #116  
Old 10-12-2012, 11:15 AM
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Congratulations Europe!
Boring.

On another note, whatever happened to wwgkd? He was/is awesome.

Burn the "Nobel" Prize in Economics.
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