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  #61  
Old 05-05-2011, 05:41 AM
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IBrake4Rainbows IBrake4Rainbows is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino Scuderia View Post
Before 9/11 I thought OBL was a joke, that he was just a made up 'boogie man' used for a label to put on the various attacks to make the Intel operations appear to know something about what they were doing.

When it was learned that OBL was responsible for planning the 9/11 attacks I felt stupid for doubting, but at the same time I felt our various agencies had been vindicated.

This American doesn't want a 'boogie man', this American doesn't need a 'boogie man'. I don't think this American is alone in this realization nor do I think I was alone in my thoughts of OBL prior to 9/11.

9/11 changed America in many ways that most of us don't like, we don't like the paranoia, we don't like the encroachment on our freedoms.

I'm hoping we can deal with future threats and 'boogie men' in a more practical manner and I believe we will provided we keep hardcore religious rightwingers out of the WH. At the same time a lot of us will not blow off the idea that next OBL is already out there planning....so when we hear a name connected to any attack we will take it more seriously.
I perhaps should be clearer in my response.

The American psyche may not need a 'boogie man', in this case someone who's mere name conjurs up images of unimaginable hatred and, more importantly to the purposes of my argument, patriotism.

Who needs boogie men? the powerful and the political. By having an enemy with which you can spew rhetoric and bluster at, you, if only for a moment, take the heat off yourself and point it towards something that can collectively unite the peoples in a common base emotion - fear. And finally, when your grizzly work is done, people congratulate you, celebrate their own small victories, and the cycle continues.

Forgive me for being somewhat disingenuous (I have had the fortune in my time to meet some survivors of the Pentagon attack) but the celebratory scenes of drunken students and 'patriotic' individuals dancing in the streets celebrating the death of one man is eerily reminiscent of those scenes you'd see in some unfriendly countries following...oh, say September 11?

Bin Laden was, by all accounts, not a very nice man. But he certainly wasn't this Goliath the Media, Political pundits and indeed some politicians believe him to be. Terrorist cells are more like Octopi - and they've cut off a tentacle that hasn't been effectively used in a long time.

I hate to bear bad news (perhaps I'm trolled, if so, good work) but that quote isn't a MLK quote, Matra.

I'll quote Margaret Thatcher here (perhaps not the best, but the most appropriate):

Quote:
We must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend
The best revenge is a life lived well.
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  #62  
Old 05-05-2011, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
solid words ..............
Not all of that quote is MLK actually. Not to lessen its message, just an FYI.

IB4R, that Maggie-ism applies to more than just the terrorist and the hijacker really.. to any antagonist that seeks to make your a life a misery that can be applied, and should be far more often than it is.
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Last edited by pimento; 05-05-2011 at 05:59 AM.
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  #63  
Old 05-05-2011, 08:49 AM
zuzulo56 zuzulo56 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis View Post
I am sure they are equally undoubtedly overjoyed to have you speak on all their behalf as to how they really felt about those particular conflicts.
(Ah goody, two Waltzing-Matilda blokes ganging up on the Yank...well, let's 'ave a right go of it, what?)
I WAS THERE , YOUNGSTER (SE ASIA)...I SAW...SPOKE...AND TASTED THE FEELING & EMOTIONS OF THOSE ABOUT ME. That's one of the personal consequences of war...too bloody much info. Your two-man club, or is it an association?, should stumble 'oer to a Veterans Assemblage, and ask those fine gents 'bout their thoughts on the matter at hand.. Why, maybe they'll even allow ya to wax their rides...as a sign of proper respect. I would!
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  #64  
Old 05-05-2011, 10:00 AM
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Matra et Alpine Matra et Alpine is offline
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zuzo, time YOU showed some respect and attitude ?

You assume because some aren't ra-ra-ra that they dont have experience direct or indirect ?

Maybe YOU need to get to talk to some veterans of terrorism who have seen it through to the end and talk to some jocks who served in NI during the worst ?? Just drop me a PM.

HATE sanctimonious ground stompers who forget it is not a "war" just coz a leader says so
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  #65  
Old 05-05-2011, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
But that's the definition of a terrorist ( or freedom fighter !)
Let's remember how many "civilians" died and continue to die in actions supported by our nations Not fall in to the trap that ours are wars and theirs are terrorist attacks. A rocket falling in any nation in and around Israel is wrong, yet one side is suported and not taken to task on UN resolutions and the other is condemned ??

With Afghan 0 the Russian army "invaded" and fought an open battle.
Western political factions dont do it so openly and thus I can see WHY the likes of the Palestinian and Lebanese in the past felt the ONLY way is to attack the aggressor. Just our aggresions were financial, political, multinational control and UN actions to subdue their advancement.

Let's not forget that in the fight for American independance not every battle and dead English soldier was done in open field

NOW, NOT condoning, but attempting to grasp the things that leads these folsk to the insanity they end up with. ( Again, maybe some of use who have faced open terrorism on our streets for 40+ years are more adept at realising it's not black/white, them/use, right/wrong and the only way out is by peace as nobody can "win" )

So just as students rioted on American university campuses in the 60s ... sometimes people think violence against those who can be reached is "legititimate"

NOW, before Glenn Beck reads this and does a batshit-crazy on me ....... I NEVER condone violence, terrorism nor acts unlawful. BUT, can see how some MAY chose that route with a warped sense of what is going on. Just as GWB/Blair did over WMDs.
I know you´re not defending what Bin Laden did in any way and I can understand your reasoning. All I´m saying is that personaly, I AM glad Bin Laden got wasted. I had a friend working in WTC tower 1. He didn´t even like to talk politics (domestic or foriegn) and was respecfull of everyone´s beliefes. I hate to think the horror he went though before he died. Damn it he should still be here


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
Well I never smile about anyones death.
I will mourn the bad things all do in whatever god/nation/politic they claim. BUT, rather see them incarcerated and isolated till they die of natural causes.

Reminded of a quote regarding WW2 Nuremburg trials ..."When Goering collected himself enough to talk, he said that he had naturally expected the death penalty, and was glad that he had not gotten a life sentence, because those who are sentenced to life imprisonment never become martyrs."

So making them dead martyrs gives them strength we shodul never allow.

Making them suffer a life away from all, isolated, alone a much more effective lesson for all. ( and YES, differeing rules need written for it to avoid the problem when Megrahi was handed to Scottish prison where our laws REQUIRE the process to have compassion for dying people. Nobody will make that oversight again ! )
Bin Laden will be considered a martir I know. But even if he caught alive, he would have been considered so IMO since his followers are so fanatical. Again, these are just my own personal feelings on the subject and by no means do I pretend to say that what happened was the ideal outcome. But I have no problem with it.
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  #66  
Old 05-05-2011, 03:48 PM
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Matra et Alpine Matra et Alpine is offline
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no probs taz, we share the feelings of those lost and hurt in terrorist acts

I do believe that rotting in jail would be better as those who were imprisoned at Nuremburg I think demonstrated.

I think "no problem" for me is difficult as having now turned up to be unarmed and to have by the sound of it hidden behind his wife I'm not sure all efforts were taken to take him alive. But hey, depends on the role as seen of a special forces on the spot and in the heat I woudlnt' hold off if he didnt' stick his hands up in surrendor on third call to do so. But I guess we'll never know ?

Made worse by some of the nasty images of American's cheering and riding around in quads with flags firing guns ! Irony never was a strength

THe other problem a death causes is the now rolling stone of "he's not really dead" claims Live and in prison you can SHOW the punishment for all to see.
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  #67  
Old 05-05-2011, 04:00 PM
zuzulo56 zuzulo56 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
zuzo, time YOU showed some respect and attitude ?

You assume because some aren't ra-ra-ra that they dont have experience direct or indirect.

HATE sanctimonious ground stompers who forget it is not a "war" just coz a leader says so
And so, the timidity of Europe...that B-4 ya blokes will see a threat and take action, you'd rather stand and be eviscerated...and that, me friend, is what I hate. I've seen too many die, thusly.
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  #68  
Old 05-05-2011, 04:02 PM
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taz_rocks_miami taz_rocks_miami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastDriver View Post
Already happening, but with that said, If you're a praying man keep us in your prayers, because we need all the help we can get. And I would like to be able to come home and see my wife and son again. Thanks in advance for your prayers, for me, and the rest of the deployed soldiers.
I didn´t know one of our members was deployed. Of course you got got my prayers so that you all com home safe
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  #69  
Old 05-05-2011, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzulo56 View Post
(Ah goody, two Waltzing-Matilda blokes ganging up on the Yank...well, let's 'ave a right go of it, what?)
I WAS THERE , YOUNGSTER (SE ASIA)...I SAW...SPOKE...AND TASTED THE FEELING & EMOTIONS OF THOSE ABOUT ME. That's one of the personal consequences of war...too bloody much info. Your two-man club, or is it an association?, should stumble 'oer to a Veterans Assemblage, and ask those fine gents 'bout their thoughts on the matter at hand.. Why, maybe they'll even allow ya to wax their rides...as a sign of proper respect. I would!
full respect for vets,
but if not for the stupid americans/american government they would never have had to be vets in the first place
RAH RAH RAH USA! USA!

next month; americans masturbate to the death of gaddafi
grave dancing is just sickening.. nothing good will come of this!
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Last edited by clutch-monkey; 05-05-2011 at 04:10 PM.
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  #70  
Old 05-05-2011, 04:24 PM
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Matra et Alpine Matra et Alpine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzulo56 View Post
And so, the timidity of Europe...that B-4 ya blokes will see a threat and take action, you'd rather stand and be eviscerated...and that, me friend, is what I hate. I've seen too many die, thusly.
Suggest you learn a bit that will connect fact with your brain before posting what you dont clearly have a clue about.
In fact with comments like that I seriously doubt you are deployed !!!!
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  #71  
Old 05-05-2011, 04:25 PM
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maybe the coalition didn't pull out of iraq due to lack of evidence and public opinion

clearly they pulled out because working with the US armed forces is insufferable

i kid, i kid..
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  #72  
Old 05-05-2011, 04:27 PM
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Matra et Alpine Matra et Alpine is offline
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why ? seriously I know of a few of the older wiser guys on deployment who did NOT want to go on patrol with US air cover
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  #73  
Old 05-05-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzulo56 View Post
(Ah goody, two Waltzing-Matilda blokes ganging up on the Yank...well, let's 'ave a right go of it, what?)
Yank bashing? Like when anyone dares to have an opinion that may possibly question the inviolability of the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzulo56 View Post
I WAS THERE , YOUNGSTER
Cheers, I’m 48 but I appreciate being called young.
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Originally Posted by zuzulo56 View Post
(SE ASIA)...I SAW...SPOKE...AND TASTED THE FEELING & EMOTIONS OF THOSE ABOUT ME. That's one of the personal consequences of war...
"OF THOSE ABOUT" you. So you understand then what I meant by how grateful all our country men would be for you to speak on all their behalves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzulo56 View Post
Your two-man club, or is it an association?, should stumble 'oer to a Veterans Assemblage, and ask those fine gents 'bout their thoughts on the matter at hand.. Why, maybe they'll even allow ya to wax their rides...as a sign of proper respect. I would!
You wear your sanctimony like a medal mate. I respect and honour each and every one who endured it so don’t even try to suggest this waltzing matilda in any way holds any malice toward those people.
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  #74  
Old 05-05-2011, 08:53 PM
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My wife (who works for a major investment firm) and I lost two friends and business associates in WTC 2. Neither we nor mutual friends and family can take any pleasure from the killing of Bin Laden. For such a conservative group you'd expect the opposite, but most agree bringing him to trial would have had more lasting impact. They didn't want blood, they wanted justice.

My younger brother spent 20 years in the Navy and afterwards was a ships pilot for a company that services oil rigs (until Katrina). He took one of the Halliburton/KBR tax-free deals as a contractor operating heavy equipment in Iraq. He was VERY rah-rah and besides the sweet pay, was pumped about being near "the shit" again. We had a drink together when he returned stateside (I only see him every few years) when our father died. Pat brought up dad's inability to deal with his memories as a pilot in WW2, once sobbing uncontrollably as we watched a documentary about the fire-bombing of Dresden. It was a roundabout way for my brother to express his epiphany regarding war. He had nearly become a typical lifer because it's secure, and military culture appealed to his sense of masculinity. But after what he witnessed in 2006-7 he confessed that we had no business in Iraq, and declared he would never again support violence as a solution, as the innocent pay the greatest price. After being a huge cheerleader of "wasting ragheads" he began questioning the entire charade that took the US there, and is an advocate for veteran and multi-faith causes. He's raising cattle now.
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  #75  
Old 05-05-2011, 11:14 PM
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csl177 that is very well put. Neither the hawks nor the doves can or should assume to speak on behalf of how all servicemen feel. They are after all individuals and will view it all through their own eyes, in relation to their own experiences, beliefs and values. And they nor any of us should have to tow any governments line when for the most part those lines serve duplicitous and conflicting interests.
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