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  #46  
Old 09-19-2005, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyperl
do they still not wear a HANS in WRC? i know it wouldnt have helped in a side-on collision, just curious...

a driver and navigator were killed on a national rallye here in Oregon on the first stage when their car hit a tree head on (as far as i know) on the first stage.
Yeah, Mark Lovell and his navigator... he was a 3x champion in the USA I think.
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  #47  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:28 PM
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Note the difference in run off areas.
As tragic as this is I cant understand how more people arent killed given the total disregard for safet compared to circuit racing. I guess it goes with the sport but could you imagine trees on the side of a circuit and people standing on the side of track with no barriers?
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  #48  
Old 09-19-2005, 05:33 PM
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You don't go as close to the limit in a rally stage as you do on a track.

( Unless you're a local and in that case know the stage liek the back of your hand. I've seen guys in the Scottish Trossachs rally book faster times in Mk2 Escorts than the works Quattros All down to "local knowledge" )

Because the driver is getting just one chance to go over a route then you can't get the car as close to the limit/ It's why I dont' liek stages being re-run for the 'spectators and TV' that modern WRC takes
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  #49  
Old 09-20-2005, 03:16 AM
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Focus on safety in aftermath of Park death

(Reuters)

After co-driver Michael Park's tragic death on Sunday, the spotlight has focused on safety within the sport. An inquiry has been initiated, but we take a look at the experts' opinions on the inherent danger in Rally racing.

World championship rallying is a sport of evident danger, with cars racing through forests and along icy mountain roads edged by precipices.

While the death of Peugeot co-driver Michael Park in Sunday's Rally of Britain will shine a more intense spotlight on safety, organisers can point out just how rare such tragic accidents have become.

"We set out 10 years ago to improve safety for competitors and spectators. We've not seen a driver killed for 20 years almost, " rally supremo and former champion co-driver David Richards told Monday's Daily Telegraph newspaper.

"We're trying to make it safer all the time but motorsport is dangerous."

New Zealander Rodger Freeth, whose Subaru rolled in the 1993 Rally of Australia, was the last co-driver to die in a world championship event.

Before that, Finland's Henri Toivonen was killed with U.S. co-driver Sergio Cresto when their Lancia plunged into a ravine and caught fire at the 1986 Corsica Rally.

Italian Attilio Bettega was killed in the same event the year before.

The powerful 'Group B' cars were banned after Toivonen's accident and important safety measures introduced, including the use of HANS head and neck restraints this season.

Drivers and co-drivers have had massive impacts and emerged relatively unscathed in recent years.

Norwegian Petter Solberg and British co-driver Phil Mills hit a concrete block, designed to resist tanks, at around 160kph in Germany last year. The Subaru flipped and smashed into another block but both walked away from the wreckage.

SIDE IMPACT

Although details of the accident that killed Park remain sketchy, it is known that the car driven by Estonian Markko Martin went off the road at speed and hit a tree on the passenger side.

Peugeot boss Jean-Pierre Nicolas said Park died instantly. Despite all the safety advances, that is the kind of crash -- a lateral collision with an immovable object -- that all drivers dread.

The side is the weakest part of the car and even a roll cage using metres of steel struts and cross members can offer little real protection.

"Short of building a Chieftain tank, there is no real solution to this problem," said Briton Nicky Grist, a championship-winning co-driver with Colin McRae.

"The side is the most vulnerable part of any car, whether it's a road car or a rally car," he told the Guardian newspaper.

"When you are sliding towards a tree at that speed, there's little you can do."

Grist, who has had several lucky escapes with McRae over the years including one in Corsica in 2000 when their Ford landed upside down in a ravine, felt it was not really a question of co-driver safety.

"It could just as easily have happened to the driver, had it been a right rather than a left-hand bend," he said. "It's just a horrible twist of fate.

"You could have that accident 200 times, but if you hit it in the wrong place on the 201st time, then you will get hurt."
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  #50  
Old 09-20-2005, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
(...)

"You could have that accident 200 times, but if you hit it in the wrong place on the 201st time, then you will get hurt."
A few more centimeters to the rear or front and it'd have been another harmless accident.
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  #51  
Old 09-20-2005, 09:03 AM
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Why arn't airbags used in rally cars. Sure they add wt. but if a man can save his life with them, then why not.....
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  #52  
Old 09-20-2005, 09:09 AM
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  #53  
Old 09-20-2005, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunk
Why arn't airbags used in rally cars. Sure they add wt. but if a man can save his life with them, then why not.....
because at every yump or wheel hook in a ditch it would fire

Dont' think I'd be too happy with an airbag filling my vision doing 110Mph alogn a Finnish straight in the forests !!!!!!!
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  #54  
Old 09-20-2005, 09:23 AM
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Plus the whole point of the HANS device is to stabilise the head under any impact, stopping it being thrown forward and hitting the wheel/dash. There shouldn't really be much need for airbags.

I guess there could be an argument for side impact/curtain style airbags, but they certainly wouldn't give any more protection than a full roll cage.
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  #55  
Old 09-20-2005, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine
You don't go as close to the limit in a rally stage as you do on a track
I have to differ... Anyone who has watched in car video (or outside for that matter) of a WRC stage can see they are going 100% given the circumstances. I would estimate at least one WRC car is total loss per event (more if McRae is competing ), which means they must be going pretty damn fast (or they are lame drivers (NOT!)).

Have to agree about the freak nature of this accident. From the cars condition after the accident, Solberg's in Germany comes to my mind as potentially "worse". My thoughts are with his friends and family.
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  #56  
Old 09-20-2005, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magracer
I have to differ... Anyone who has watched in car video (or outside for that matter) of a WRC stage can see they are going 100% given the circumstances. I would estimate at least one WRC car is total loss per event (more if McRae is competing ), which means they must be going pretty damn fast (or they are lame drivers (NOT!)).
You are confusing going fast and going as fast as it may be possible to go.

The times and speeds a rally driver can attain on a closed practices stages are invariably 5 mph faster than in an open stage.

Track racing allows the driver the opportunity every 1'30" to 2 minutes to come to the SAME corner and try jsut a lttle harder, braking later, turning in sharper apexing later accelerating ealrier. THUS they eahc lap get a little faster until they reach the limit - of the car and the driver.

A rally driver gets ONE change to pick a line and get round a corner.
They do NOT have the chance to go over it time and again and improve times.

EXCEPT in closed stage testing where as stated they manage faster BECAUSE they get multiple chances.

You are right in them putting in 100% effort but by virtue of it being a rally and not a race they very seldom get 100% of the potential speed.

PS: Getting over the limit isn't confined to rallying either. Count the off's next time you go to a live track race It's just as was shown earlier that on a track it's "safer" byt virtue of having man-made run-offs and kitty-litter and tyre to absorb energy before hard things.
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  #57  
Old 09-20-2005, 11:33 AM
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Given your expertise in rallying (checked your bio) I'm not in a position to argue...

but, [QUOTE=magracer]...they are going 100% given the circumstances.QUOTE] being my main statement, all I´m saying is that they are effectively at the limit (not of the car or driver, but of all the conditions put together).

Mag
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  #58  
Old 09-20-2005, 11:36 AM
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that's their job... RIP About the airbag , that's a ****ing idea lots of drivers are already complaining about the HANS system (Panizzy:"it's a real piece of shit"at the monte-carlo this year).As it's been already said , it's more dangerous than useful ...

Last edited by forza_autodelta; 09-20-2005 at 11:40 AM.
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  #59  
Old 09-21-2005, 04:11 AM
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  #60  
Old 09-21-2005, 04:17 AM
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i have just seen this on another forum

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